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Post by
Rankkor
Sorry, but nothing can ever make me see garrosh as anything other than a villain
that has a name you know?
when discussing lore, you really outta get rid of that. Kinda harmful for healthy discussions.
Come on now, a port? Wiping out an entire civilization for a port? I would put it in the grey area if it was, like, wiping out a civilization because your people need the land as their is no other suitable land for your people. But for a freaking war port?
first off, as far as EVERYONE IN THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS CONCERNED, there was no civilization in gilneas, that was a wasteland full of worgen, worgens who have been enemies of the forsaken for nearly 10 years and have caused countless casualties among them in the forest of silverpine.
Worgens who were allied with arugal, who was later added to the ranks of the scourge.
So yes, they represented a very real threat to the horde, and had to be dealt with.
And secondly, that area represented a weak spot in the horde frontier, a place where an enemy could easily and quickly send an army, and have said army litterally at the back door of the undercity, which the alliance did. Need I remind you of the big-ass army they sent to silverpine? that army didn't just spontaneously materialized itself there, they were sent there via the same ports you so casually dismiss.
Part of protecting your land and your people means denying the enemy a point of entry. And since gilneas was neither part of the alliance, nor had shown any signs of civilization (just worgens everywhere) for the past 10 years, you bet the horde generals ordered the land be secured to prevent alliance incursions. Ahh there was a VERY SMALL group of humans left alive? how on earth were they suposed to know that? even then, only forsakens were there, and they were obeying silvannas, so the slaving, killing, and all that? that was her alone.
So please get your facts straight.
"Yes, wipe out the country, all the men, woman and children, but don't use the plague to do so, that'd be dishonorable. Instead of giving them a horrific, slow and painful death by acid gas, instead hack them to bits with sharp weapons. It's somewhat less horrific, so that makes it A-ok! Herp derp I haz honor".
Again, refer to the above, nobody (neither horde nor alliance) knew there were human survivors in gilneas. As far as the world was concerned, it was only full of AGGRESSIVE, FERAL, SAVAGE BEASTS, who would rip to shreds anyone and anything in their path.
I've told you times and times again that garrosh DOES NOT ENDORSE GENOCIDE IN ANY WAY OR FORM. Certain Overlord called Krom'gar learned that the hard way (via expresso drop to the ground)
Sorry, he's a monster. He has no honor, no standards,
and doesn't give a dam about his people.
As kosak said, he's plunging the world into chaos with his war, even at the expense of his own people. (And again, this is from kosak, not me).
this bit right here shows why you aren't fit to judge anyone, and its because you know jack.
Garrosh not caring for his people? dude, his number 1 fault is precisely that he cares way too much. Thrall cared about his people, but as a shaman also cared about the balance to the world, so every desicion he made, was made while keeping (or trying to keep) the interests of his people AND of the other races of the world in check. Garrosh on the other hand is biased towards orcs. He makes irrational desicions presicely because he only sees the good it would do to the orcs, and choses to ignore the harm it would do to non-orcs. Specially if they are alliance races.
Kosak said he was plunging the world into chaos with his war, and I feel compelled to remind you that varian is doing the exact same. Both have a very VERY serious bias regarding the races. One believes EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM MUST BE WIPED OUT to keep his people safe(varian). The other believes EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM MUST BE CONQUERED and pay tribute to the awesomeness of his people (garrosh) and it is these 2 knuckleheads who have trown the world into chaos by utterly refusing to see the harm they do to their own people, and to their allies with their attitudes.
Plus, for the billionth time, if garrosh had no honor, and no morality helding him in check WHY THE FU*K DID HE KILLED KROM'GAR?
And lets also remember how he held kidnapped magnataur and their children, holding the children hostage and threatening to kill them if their parents didn't help them take over ashenvale.
this is a character flaw that both varian and garrosh display. They often refuse to see certain races as people. Instead they see them as simple animals, beasts, and as such, any abuse they commit upon them is justified in their minds because "they are only mindless beasts".
Garrosh sees the magnataurs as simple animals, no better than a horse, or a pig, and that's why he does what he does. Varian sees the orcs as simple beasts and that's why he feels no remorse in killing and butchering every single one of them. Or subbitting them to a life in hell as carnage beasts in the Concentration Camps. There to serve as amusement and entertainment to the human nobility who are eager to see beasts tearing at each other.
And, also,
IN WRATH (Which was quite a while ago)
, he tried to justify killing children because "they might grow up to want to kill us for killing their parents". Wow, what a nice, honorable guy!
fixed, and highlighted the part you conviniently chose to ignore. IN WRATH. Today we're in cataclysm. And garrosh learned some (Sadly not all) lessons taught to him by saurfang, including that killing children is a no-no.
Of course, you'd know this if you had seen a certain conversation between garrosh and saurfang in Warsong Hold...........ooops, I forgot, you refuse to see the horde content, and as such have a large bias covering your eyes.
my bad.
And before you say "varian is just as bad", varian isn't even remotely comparable. At least varian has rational reasons for wanting war with the horde
Right, "they killed mah FATHER, AND THEN MY FOSTER FATHER, SO NOW I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL!"
very reasonable indeed.
And unlike garrosh, varian
doesn't want to rule the world
, he just wants to disband the horde because he sees them as a threat to his people, not because he wants to wipe out every last orc in existance, and rule the world.
duh, ITS BECAUSE HE ALREADY RULES THE WORLD. Jesuschrist, have u SEEN stormwind? largest, wealthiest, and most luxurious kingdom in the entire continent man. With the largest borders, and the highest quality of life for his subjects. He doesn't really NEEDS war to expand his borders. Now lets see what the orcs have: Huts made of mud, life in a desert that bears no life at all, and poverty in the EXTREME.
Garrosh wants to improve the life conditions of the orcs in kalimdor and as such wants to conquer it so that future orcs can live in better homes than fur tents and mud huts.
Very easy to point fingers by humans who live in castles of stone and gold.
Gee, come to think of it, I can't recall a single instance where varian has ever kidnapped children
Funny, Come to think of it, I can't recall a single instance where Garrosh has ever kidnapped children.
or has ever attacked a neutral nation
because in your biased mind, the attack on HONOR POINT and the fleet mobilizing on Durotar while the treaty was still in place never happened. That's called a bias.
This really proves you need to get off the pedestal and DO THE HORDE QUESTS.
For example, horde SCREAMS of evil after doing the alliance quests in ashenvale, but after a closer inspection by doing those same quests as horde, reveals stuff isn't as simple as it looks like.
Of course, we know you're never gonna do that because in your mind, creating a horde toon will infect you with some bacteria and that will make you unclean.
(the end)
Post by
Adamsm
Funny, Come to think of it, I can't recall a single instance where Garrosh has ever kidnapped children.Um...the Magnataur cubs to force the Magnataur to be his secret weapon for the Wolfheart Ashenvale Invasion? However, he did have the Orcs treat the cubs well, since hostages to good behavior are no good otherwise.
Though, could drag up the old 'Varian was willing to kill a 'child'!' argument, since he was more then willing to attack and kill Med'an in a fit of rage upon learning the new guardian was the son of Garona so.....
Post by
Rankkor
Funny, Come to think of it, I can't recall a single instance where Garrosh has ever kidnapped children.Um...the Magnataur cubs to force the Magnataur to be his secret weapon for the Wolfheart Ashenvale Invasion? However, he did have the Orcs treat the cubs well, since hostages to good behavior are no good otherwise.
Though, could drag up the old 'Varian was willing to kill a 'child'!' argument, since he was more then willing to attack and kill Med'an in a fit of rage upon learning the new guardian was the son of Garona so.....
/shrugs.......
Humans mistreated orc children in MUCH WORST WAYS than that. And as you said, Varian was quite willing to kill off med'an (who was barely older than his own son) on a whim.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh I know Rank, just saying, he's correct in that instance that Garrosh has ordered the kidnapping of children, but it doesnt make any of the other points Sold raised true.
Post by
Rankkor
worst one would be saying that garrosh doesn't care about his people, when his number 1 flaw is precisely that he cares more than a healthy person should.
/shakes-head.
Its specially frustrating that A LOT of these issues could be solved if only he'd made a horde toon and DO THEIR QUESTS.
You've told him, I've told him,
Even the blues agree to it
Nothing is healthier in this game than roll a toon on each faction, so you can get your facts straight.
I can honestly say I've learned more about the alliance while playing my druid and pally than anything else I've ever seen by reading a wikia article, or watching a youtube video.
There's just something "lost in translation" when looking at the lore from an outsider's POV. Heck he doesn't even need to make that horde toon his "main" just make it, get loremaster of Ek/Kalimdor on it, and VOILA, tons of information about the horde. The good, the bad, the ugly, and the cute, all in a single package.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, I've told him to make a DK, since that's the fastest way to get the information, but he's too stubborn. And yeah, he's got the issue that he can be a good leader, but he's too close to his people; that's honestly why, when Thrall goes back to Warchief, I'm still hoping Garrosh ends up filling in the shoes of Saurfang as the primary military commander, because at this point, that's where his strengths lie.
Post by
Morec0
An interesting little questionnaire for helping develope your roleplaying characters.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Oh boy, read edge of night rankorr, garrosh knew about the gilneans living their and was encouraging the forsaken to slaughter the gilneans because of how they walled up their country and wouldn't let them in when the scourge invasion happened. They knew all along.
now if only you could provide proof of all of this, it would be wonderful.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh boy, read edge of night rankorr, garrosh knew about the gilneans living their and was encouraging the forsaken to slaughter the gilneans because of how they walled up their country and wouldn't let them in when the scourge invasion happened. They knew all along.
Um....no, that's still not true either: since Garrosh was not on the battlefield and left long before that happened. If anything, the Sylvanas leader story should be considered to be massively non-canon since it's goes against all of the questing in Silverpine. Also, one more time for the non-reading types: The Forsaken fleets arrived on the coast of Gilneas shortly before the Cataclysm started; once the Shattering hit and broke down the walls, then they could invade from the land.
Post by
Rankkor
And the fact that you think that varian's entire hatred of the horde is based on the fact that they killed his father just goes to show your lack of alliance knowledge.
It isn't. His entire hatred of the race steems from the fact that an orc killed his father, and then (from his POV) the horde killed his foster father (Bolvar)
Its true there are other factors in, but they are all secondary to these 2.
And stormwind is wealthy? Have you done westfall in cataclysm? You're giving me a big soapbox speech about me being too biased and refusing to learn the lore of the horde (which is untrue) when you show your lack of knowledge about alliance repeatedly.
I said
STORMWIND
, not westfall.
That the king is cheap enough to not send enough coin to the adjacent regions is one thing, but people living in elwynn and even more so people living in stormwind live in better conditions than anyone else in the eastern kingdoms.
And you do refuse to learn the lore of the horde. Otherwise you would not say stuff such as Garrosh endorsing genocide, or even worst, not giving a crap about his people.
That idiot has a lot of flaws, but not caring about his people, and even worst, endorsing the killing of children aint one of them.
Stormwind is very poor right now.
nope, Stormwind is very wealthy right now, but refuses to send money to the colonies because its too busy spending said money on ships, troops, and war.
Notice how after deathwing attacked the capital, they started gathering to repair it, but sentry hill is still in the same bad conditions it was in vanilla and JUST BARELY got some mild repairs going on, while the rest of westfall crumbles in the dust.
Post by
Adamsm
The entire zone is about how stormwind is poor due to the campaign against the lich king, causing a bunch of people from stormwind to go homeless because of the poverty, so they drift into westfall, get rejected from Sentinel Hill because they don't have any room for them, than Vaneesa Vancleef uses this to her advantage to spread propaganda among the stormwind hobos and convince them to join her reformed Defias Brotherhood. Stormwind is very poor right now.I...have no words for how badly you take that....the reason so many people were kicked out of Stormwind was because of the pre-Cata events, with the Doomsayer cult set up, and eventually found out to be a part of the Twilight Hammer; they got incredibly paranoid and started kicking people out, then Deathwing hit and caused the damage.
And actually Sold, out of the Human nations, Stormwind is the richest and most prosperous...since you know, Stromgarde has been in a war for 7 years and just lost their Prince, Gilneas was away from the rest of the world, Theramore is made up of survivors of Lordaeron and no one has heard from Kul Tiras since Daelin hit Durotar.
You're giving me a big soapbox speech about me being too biased and refusing to learn the lore of the horde (which is untrue) when you show your lack of knowledge about alliance repeatedly.COMPLETELY TRUE! The amount of Horde lore you know could fill a thimble and still have room left over.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
that short-story "edge of night" is (Like all the other leader short stories) little more than glorified fan-fiction that just happened to win a contest. Adamsm already pointed out some of the MANY lore-mistakes contained within it. That blizz failed to spot, or recognize those mistakes is another thing.
and BTW:
And no rankorr, you can't discredit the other perfectly valid reasons for varian hating orcs. I
could just as easily call you biased for thinking his reasons for hating orcs are all silly and trivial
. Because, you know, what the orcs did when they invaded azeroth,
and what they continued to do even after thrall reformed the horde.
@bolded part: here's were we are different. Unlike you, I don't hold a bias against the alliance. They have several valid reasons for going to war against the horde. Just as the horde has many reasons to go to war against the alliance, because UNLIKE YOU, I don't believe this is a black&white conflict, with a villain and a hero, this is 2 misguided factions that have been TRICKED into war by third parties who want them to kill each other.
@underlined part: that's the other thing, all of the "wrong-doings" that varian acuses the horde of commiting have actually been done by THIRD PARTIES, who want to put him against the orcs. And here is where his lack of judgement kicks in, because rather than research and take a desision based on caution, the moment he feels he's been agravated, he uses that as a justification to kick off a war.
Ohh he was Kidnapped while en route to a peace summit? THE HORDE DID IT! He was attacked at theramoore on his second visit? THE HORDE DID IT. Bolvar was killed? THE HORDE DID IT. His people are in a dream-like state and they can't wake up? THE HORDE DID IT, Night elves were killed despite the non-agression treaty and then were flayed and skinned? THE HORDE DID IT!. (Hint: the horde did none of the above, those were the Twilight Hammer, the Black Dragonflight, Burning legion, and several others)
He's (to put it mildly) a dupe. He has a LARGE chip on his shoulders against the orcs, and thats why he's so easy to manipulate by third parties such as the legion, the scourge, or the twilight hammer. All they have to do is send some people to attack his, plant some fake evidence that the horde did it and BOOYA, he will swallow it automatically, without bothering to fact-check, or even see if there's foul play involved.
And why does he do that? big chip on shoulder.
Because, you know, what the orcs did when they invaded azeroth
that was the OLD horde, ya know, the ones that got killed, and the few who werent killed spent 30 years in a hell hole paying for their sins while suffering every sort of abuse a living being could and being able to do NOTHING about it.
Post by
Adamsm
Again, Proof of Night should not be counted as Canon, since Garrosh
had already left the battle field
before the final battles started. And while Ralaar worked with the Forsaken...they were never together, as the Alpha fell
before
the Cataclysm struck, and by the time the actual army arrived, the forces that had arrived there by ship were destroyed and the Scythe was in the hands of the good guys.
And no rankorr, you can't discredit the other perfectly valid reasons for varian hating orcs. I could just as easily call you biased for thinking his reasons for hating orcs are all silly and trivial. Because, you know, what the orcs did when they invaded azeroth, and what they continued to do even after thrall reformed the horde. Do I REALLY need to explain what these reasons are?Oh bull %^&*; just plain and simple bull !@#$ from a bias poster.
Post by
Rankkor
Again, Proof of Night should not be counted as Canon, since Garrosh
had already left the battle field
before the final battles started. And while Ralaar worked with the Forsaken...they were never together, as the Alpha fell
before
the Cataclysm struck, and by the time the actual army arrived, the forces that had arrived there by ship were destroyed and the Scythe was in the hands of the good guys.
yep.
I don't really like many of the leader short stories, because, unlike the books, these were written by AMATEUR writters, who just happened to win a contest.
I will admit some of them are quite well written, but the fact that they are amateurs has to be remembered. As such, they can (and did) made a glaring number of lore mistakes that weren't really checked by the people in charge of the contest.
We've seen evidence of blizzard not bothering to fact-check these mistakes before. Do I need to recall the red-shirt guy schooling METZEN on his own lore?
Post by
Adamsm
You need to learn your time lines big time Sold.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Edge of Night was written by Dave Kosak, the lead quest designer at blizzard, not fan fiction from a wow player.
Your move.
Then that is even worse! That one of the quest designers had such a massive and idiotic derp moment! That even more should count it as non-canon.
Edit: Also, out of all the Leader stories, the only one I hated more then that was Gallywix's story. Also Sold, nice to show us you have no real arguments, since using 'your move' is the most definite proof of that.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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