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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
Skreeran
question: was Varian on the throne at the time of the fall of Quel'thalas? Or was he a slave at that point?He was on the throne. He was only captured shortly before Vanilla.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
question: was Varian on the throne at the time of the fall of Quel'thalas? Or was he a slave at that point?
He was, but he was in the 10 years of despair and depression at that point.
Post by
Rankkor
is anyone else upset that they just turned the "villain switch" on for the zandalari tribe with no other explanation than "they went crazy and desperate due to the cataclysm" ?
because I am, after reading the official preview of patch 4.1 it seems that even when we vacated zul'gurub and zul'aman of all the rift-raft that dwelled in there somehow magically without atracting notice from the blood elves and their rather big garrison in the borderlands, a new batch of amani trolls reclaimed zul'aman overnight, and a new batch of trolls just like that reclaimed zul'gurub.
plus it feels so utterly odd that even though the fourth war is officially declared, and they are tearing each other apart in all other zones of azeroth, somehow darkspear trolls are allowed inside stormwind, and the alliance is willing to cooperate with them.
the whole "plot" of 4.1 if it can be even called that stinks more than a pile of fermented manure.
Post by
Skreeran
Eh, I don't really mind all that much.
I figure the Zandalari, on their island fairly close to the epicenter of the Cataclysm, are feeling its effects rather hard, and there's a lot of pressure to join with other trolls for survival.
It's actually done pretty well, because both the Darkspear and the Zandalari are both pretty grey here. Is it right for us to go kill the Amani and the Gurubashi just because they want to join with the Zandalari? What authority do we have to say they can't?
It's not the best plot ever, but I don't think it's really all that bad, honestly.
Post by
Patty
The problem is that King Rastakhan is supposed to be the king of all trolls on Azeroth, and the Darkpear are supposed to be subservient. Furthermore, the Darkspear and Zandalar seem(ed) to be the most moderate troll tribes, and would therefore be the most likely to perhaps cooperate with one another.
Post by
Skreeran
The problem is that King Rastakhan is supposed to be the king of all trolls on Azeroth, and the Darkpear are supposed to be subservient. Furthermore, the Darkspear and Zandalar seem(ed) to be the most moderate troll tribes, and would therefore be the most likely to perhaps cooperate with one another.I got the impression that Rastakhan is either dead or dethroned.
They're led by Zul now.
In other words, there is no Rastakhan, there is only... well y'know.
Post by
Patty
That doesn't change the Zandalar's authority above the other tribes, however.
Post by
Skreeran
That doesn't change the Zandalar's authority above the other tribes, however.Sure it could.
"The government derives power from the consent of the governed."
If the Zandalari don't have the power to keep the Darkspear subservient, what's stopping the Darkspear from using the Horde and Alliance's power to take down the Zandalari?
Post by
Rankkor
The problem is that King Rastakhan is supposed to be the king of all trolls on Azeroth, and the Darkpear are supposed to be subservient.
Furthermore, the Darkspear and Zandalar seem(ed) to be the most moderate troll tribes
,and would therefore be the most likely to perhaps cooperate with one another.
this.
the zandalari have been during all of wow, "the voice of reason" among the trolls. Heck all the quests in zul'drak are (apart from the argent crusade and knights of the ebon blade) dispensed by zandalari trolls who saw that the downfall of the gurubashi and amani was caused when they used desperate means to survive (summoning a blood god in the case of the gurubashi, and sacrificing the loa spirits and infusing them on living warriors in the case of the amani, and then sacrificing more loa spirits in the case of the drakkari)
now all of the sudden they just kicked all of their philosophies aside like yesterday's garbage and presto: Viva the loa sacrifices, viva the submission of a blood god, viva the desecration of everything the trolls hold dear in the name of survival.
it doesn't add up.
next thing we know, Thrall will endorse partaking on demon blood to ensure the survival of the horde, the entire alliance converts to worgens to boost their survival, and the argent crusade converts to undeath to better track down the remnants of the scourge.
man I hate it when they take something well established and solid and change it radically without so much as a solid WHY.
Post by
Skreeran
This isn't a retcon. While the Zandalari may have previously been moderate and relatively peaceful, that doesn't mean they will always be.
Populations are never homogenous. All it takes to completely change a country's outlook is for a previous minority to become a majority. Whether they simply have a faster growing population or the previous majority was reduced somehow (like, in a Cataclysm, perhaps), once a minority becomes the majority, they have the power to start running things the way they want to.
In addition, people change on an individual scale. While the majority of Zandalari may have been open to peace and cooperation when they were prosperous, but when catastrophe strikes, and people are dying and hungry, attitudes can change, especially when a charismatic figure takes charge and gathers a following.
On top of that, here's a quote from Lands of Mystery:
People and Culture Trolls dominate Zandalar, and it was inevitable that I clash with them — and I did so, numerous times. I learned what I could from my captured prisoners before putting them out of their misery. As the trolls’ various cultures fascinate me, I was keen to learn more about this land. Apparently, all trolls, from jungle to ice, consider Zandalar their homeland. It is neutral territory for their kind, so trolls don’t battle each other when on Zandalar. The same courtesy doesn’t extend toward other races, though, and Zandalar’s trolls are a wicked and voodoo-worshipping bunch who delight in slaying their enemies and devouring their remains. As such, not even goblin merchants are safe on this island, and visitors face stalking, axe- and spear-wielding danger from every green shadow.They may be open to peace with other trolls (like the Amani and Gurubashi), but they're only a small step away from conflict with the other races.
Naturally, the Darkspears (who have strong ties to non trolls), disagree.
Post by
Adamsm
Again, trolls will be trolls; look at back at the dawn of time: The Troll empires united to destroy the Aqir.....then what did they do? Went right back to attacking and killing each other.
What people keep forgetting is that the Darkspear/Shatterspear troll tribe is the black sheep of the race: all other trolls have that intense xenophobia that has never gone away. And saying that the Zandalar are 'naturally' peaceful just doesn't go with the trolls...at all. So, this does not surprise me, but I'm still hoping for more reveals in the Amani lands to the north east as we continue the march through Cata.
Post by
Morec0
All the World's a Stage: Playing the villian
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Again, trolls will be trolls; look at back at the dawn of time: The Troll empires united to destroy the Aqir.....then what did they do? Went right back to attacking and killing each other.
What people keep forgetting is that the Darkspear/Shatterspear troll tribe is the black sheep of the race: all other trolls have that intense xenophobia that has never gone away. And saying that the Zandalar are 'naturally' peaceful just doesn't go with the trolls...at all. So, this does not surprise me, but I'm still hoping for more reveals in the Amani lands to the north east as we continue the march through Cata.
This would mean that the trolls never change, but that goes against what trolls are. Trolls are supposed to be super-adaptable to their environments, and the changes in the world just may mean that the most fit are the most sociable with other races, the trolls with an adaptable society take the lead.
I think that they have more physical adaption than cultural. They can live pretty much anywhere (jungle, forest, ice, you name it, they live there), but Troll culture in each place is essentially the same.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
This would mean that the trolls never change, but that goes against what trolls are. Trolls are supposed to be super-adaptable to their environments, and the changes in the world just may mean that the most fit are the most sociable with other races, the trolls with an adaptable society take the lead.
Except, again, other then the black sheep Darkspears......all other troll races have that xenophobia problem......even with the other tribes/clans. Even the Darkspears look down on the other troll tribes.
Post by
Morec0
now all of the sudden they just kicked all of their philosophies aside like yesterday's garbage and presto: Viva the loa sacrifices, viva the submission of a blood god, viva the desecration of everything the trolls hold dear in the name of survival.
Except that, for all we know, all they did was "It's time to unite under one banner - the Troll banner." All mentions I've seen of the content is that they're pretty much trying to be a third power in Azeroth by crushing all that isn't Troll (or, y'know, allied with them).
Vol'jin knows very well that it's a bad idea. Hence why he tries to get people to counter this as fast as possible.
The Zandalari aren't acting as bad as you think they are, but they are being pretty stupid, to the point where I'm wondering if we're not going to learn that King Rastakhan is dead.
This Zul character likely killed him, or at least took the throne from him when he died. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn if he's keeping Rastakhan's mojo (spirit, whatever) for himself to increase his power.
On the other hand, they may have just forgot about Rastakhan.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Sinestra and Night of the Dragon.
Still more recap.
Rise of the Zandalari
; most of that makes quite a bit of sense..... and really, continues to prove that the Darkspear are the real black sheep of the Troll civilization.
When Roleplayers quit.
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