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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
A single mage can become invisible, manipulate other's magic, enchant, summon fire, frost, thunder and arcane from the air for a number of optimizable purposes, warp the pattern of time, teleport and open portals, rearrange one's form, conjure entire feasts, create illusions, perform shielding, divine into the unknown, summon and control elementals, dispell curses and fuel entire armies of magic as to improve their spellcasting or even their overall battle prowess.*
And you're saying Lilian Voss is a sue because she's much like a master rogue who learned sorcery enough to craft immolate people? Sure, she's not your average joe Footman - but she's not a Heinz Hybrid with the combined power of a former guardian, six of the greatest spellcasters in the world and wields Light, Arcane and Shamanistic magic - as well as mastered the martial arts. Or even this prodigy fighter who quickly became the greatest shaman in the world.
indeed. I don't see where does the voss hatred comes from.
She's a powerfull NPC, but there's like a billion of them out there.
From Med'an that can use nature, divine, and arcane magic, on top of martial combat (he wears a half-plate and fights with a bo staff) to Rhonin that is both a mage, and a dual-wielding swordsman that uses dualblades made of liquid silver that becomes solid wiht his mind.
this without even going to mention Krasus.
then we have Sylvannas that can mind-controll weaklings, possess others, shoot up to 50 arrows at the same time, lauch volleys of dark energy (again up to 50 at a time) jump on top of doomguards and use them as improvised mounts while she shoots other enemies in the head, and shadowstep behind her foes to do a dual-backstab. All of this while empowering her allies with her lovely voice.
A character's sueness isn't defined by how strong they are, but how invincible they are. A true character will lose. any character that doesn't is a god-mode sue.
Look at thrall, he's so powerfull, but even he got pwned by mannoroth. Look at Saurfang, best warrior ever but even he got pwned by the deathbringer, and his son was 1shoted by the lich king. Look at Jaina, who was forced to retreat once archimonde got to her base. Look at Sylvannas, how despite being the best archer in the world got killed by arthas, and even then as undead she was defeated multiple times, once by kel'tuzad, and then by godfrey.
now look at varian, not once has he been defeated, neither as a gladiator on the crimson ring, nor during his time as king of stormwind. Look at Med'an who's not ONCE has bite the dust in all his career as guardian. Look at Garrosh, who also not once has had his butt kicked in a curbstomp battle.
so far we've only seen voss 3 times, first time in deathkneel where she was just a traumatized girl, second time in the scarlet palisade where she demonstrates her powers, and third time near the monastery where she has her revenge. that alone isn't enough to make her a sue. From a storytelling POV, Defeats teach important lessons to people.
this is why people who haven't lost once make poor leaders, because only the bitterness of defeat can give you the proper perspective to lead your troops and avoid bad desitions. If and only if we keep seeing voss and she not once gets her ass handed to her, then we can call her a sue.
So far Voss can pull multiple people towards her (this doesn't mean she has a DK spell, there are other pull spells other than death grip) can incinerate multiple people at the same time, jump to great altitudes, and phase trough solid objects.
you can name up to 70 people in the world of warcaft that can do MUCH more than that.
Post by
Monday
now look at varian, not once has he been defeated, neither as a gladiator on the crimson ring, nor during his time as king of stormwind.
You insist that he would have been roflstomped had he attacked Thrall. Jaina's teleporting him away is equivalent to Jaina falling back from Archimonde. From what I see, he really isn't a sue so much as a not very well written character.
Who hates the Horde.
Post by
Skreeran
now look at varian, not once has he been defeated, neither as a gladiator on the crimson ring, nor during his time as king of stormwind.
You insist that he would have been roflstomped had he attacked Thrall. Jaina's teleporting him away is equivalent to Jaina falling back from Archimonde. From what I see, he really isn't a sue so much as a not very well written character.
Who hates the Horde.It's mainly in the comics that he's a big sue.
And I agree with Rankkor that Varian need to be knocked down a peg, but Garrosh needs to be knocked down four pegs.
Post by
Monday
I agree as well. I just see him as taking too much uncalled for flak.
/shrug
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
You insist that he would have been roflstomped had he attacked Thrall. Jaina's teleporting him away is equivalent to Jaina falling back from Archimonde
nope, because when jaina teleported from archimonde, her base got ROFLSTPMed by the legion, most of her men dead, and she just teleported when she was about to die. With varian's case, she teleported everyone before anything escalated, nobody was hurted neither horde-side, nor alliance-side.
had varian fought thrall, got his ass kicked, and THEN jaina ported him away, that would remove the sue curse from him, because for the first time he would had tasted defeat. but nope, Jaina ported him away before he could get his much deserved ass kick.
same with rhonin (what is it with mages and their insistance to stop fights) separating Garrosh and Varian from each other. Cuz Varian tottally kicking garrosh's ass would had taught garrosh a much needed lesson of humility and yes, I am 100% sure that contrary to what garrosh thinks, had Rhonin not separated them, Varian would had crushed garrosh.
it would had even been balanced out had varian recieved an ass kick by saurfang in the undercity and then jaina ports him, then garrosh gets his ass kicked by varian in the violet citadel before Rhonin separates them. Happyness ensured for the fans of both factions, and Sueness removed from 2 badly written characters.
but alas, blizz is getting rather infamous for their perchant of lost oportunities.
Post by
Monday
because for the first time he would had tasted defeat.
You mean besides being kidnapped and forced into slavery right? That sounds like defeat to me.
it would had even been balanced out had varian recieved an ass kick by saurfang in the undercity and then jaina ports him, then garrosh gets his ass kicked by varian in the violet citadel before Rhonin separates them. Happyness ensured for the fans of both factions, and Sueness removed from 2 badly written characters.
I would like this.
Let me make it clear I'm not supporting Varian, but I want to stop the tide of hatred against him, especially untrue allegations.
Post by
Rankkor
You mean besides being kidnapped and forced into slavery right? That sounds like defeat to me.
I mean a defeat when he tought himself undefeatable.
his kidnapping was done when he was in a weakened state thanks to onyxia's magic keeping him in depressive-mode permanently. and the slave thing was also when he was in a weakened state, with anmesia, hunger, and split in 2 lesser halves.
I mean a defeat NOW that he is full, recovered his memories, has all his training from his youth plus the training of earthfury, his sue-armor that showed up out of nowhere, and his magical swords that jaina just so happened to have and conviniently saw fit to never use or give to anyone else before.
now that he has all that, a defeat would put his feet on the ground rather than high up in the clouds of his ego where he sees the horde as a bunch of weaklings he can crush and squash with little effort.
the same but in higher doses is needed for garrosh, an actual solid un-handwavable defeat to put his head back on the ground and make him see that the alliance isn't a bunch of idiots who cower in fear and that the horde, despite its might is not undefeatable.
alas, the writers have denied these 2 characters the chance to grow in defeat. =/
Post by
Adamsm
I don't like Voss because the quests are designed to show just HOW F-ING AWESOME she is and not actually have her take any hits at all; at least Thrall got the &*!@ beat out of him on a regular basis while he was a gladiator. Yes, if she ends up as some high ranking Forsaken commander.....I'm going Voss camping on my Alliance toons.....
Post by
Skreeran
Thrall only lost one match, iirc, and that was because it was his ninth in a row. Lilian may turn out to be a sue, but she seems okay based on my own observations thus far (I raced changed to undead today and am working my way through the starter zone atm). I'm not saying "If Lilian's a sue, then Thrall's a sue." All I'm saying is that if we gave Thrall a chance, we should give her a chance too.
Also,
Apothecary Jerrod
and
Crispin
are interesting. We've seen leper gnomes in the Forsaken ranks before, but we weren't sure if they were plagued, enslaved, or what.
Now we know that as far as the Forsaken are concerned, anyone who's "bent the knee to Sylvanas as much one of us as you or I."
Works out well for me and Kahryez' Forsaken arc in Aftermath, heh.
Post by
Adamsm
Thrall only lost one match, iirc, and that was because it was his ninth in a row. Lilian may turn out to be a sue, but she seems okay based on my own observations thus far (I raced changed to undead today and am working my way through the starter zone atm). I'm not saying "If Lilian's a sue, then Thrall's a sue." All I'm saying is that if we gave Thrall a chance, we should give her a chance too.
Heh, shouldn't you be doing that for Rhonin then?(sorry man, couldn't resist)
Post by
Skreeran
Thrall only lost one match, iirc, and that was because it was his ninth in a row. Lilian may turn out to be a sue, but she seems okay based on my own observations thus far (I raced changed to undead today and am working my way through the starter zone atm). I'm not saying "If Lilian's a sue, then Thrall's a sue." All I'm saying is that if we gave Thrall a chance, we should give her a chance too.
Heh, shouldn't you be doing that for Rhonin then?(sorry man, couldn't resist)Heh, I gave Rhonin a chance.
One a character gives me the impulse to gouge out my eyes, I generally give them a failing grade.
And I know that you'll rebut that that's what Lilian did to you, but with Rhonin there were two major factors that turned me off. A) the writing was staggering boring. Every chapter was an uphill climb, leaving me in the bathroom growing cold for hours as a time as I struggled to finish each colossal chapter, and B) precedent. My biggest problem with Rhonin was either him breaking existing precedent (like when he f***ing heard Night Elves walking by in his sleep), or using some ability with absolutely no precedent (like his magic liquid sword that appears nowhere else in the lore).
Lilian doesn't have a book, so I don't hate that (I'd probably grow to hate her if she was written by Knaak, just like I did with Thura, despite her promising potential; likewise, I would probably like her if Golden took her on, just like I did Thrall).
And all of her abilities show up somewhere or other in the lore. The only problem is her particular combination, which actually makes some sense in context. Humans and the Scarlet Crusade in particular are known to value individual champions almost above whole armies (see: the Ashbringer).
Lilian Voss seems basically like Brigitte Abbendis with magic and ninja skillz. Which isn't unprecedented either (see: the Lightslayers).
Post by
Rankkor
I don't like Voss because the quests are designed to show just HOW F-ING AWESOME she is and not actually have her take any hits at all
not really, is not like the forsaken go all "ZOMG SHE'S SO AWESOME KAWAAAIIIIIII (*^_^*) SQUEEE" more like they say she has an intresting ability (she does) and they'd like her to join them (they do).
they don't over-glorify her anymore than other characters have been glorified in the past.
as for her super-powerfull status, the same can be said from other companion NPC's u're given in the cataclysm.
Redridge's mountains has the "Rambo-expy" John J Keeshan and his squad the "Bravo Squad" of wich you become a part of, and just like with voss, as long as you do quests with these 5 guys behind your back, you can just relax and do nothing as they pwn their way trough hordes of blackrock orcs.
all I'm saying is it's too soon to crucify her with the Mary-sue status, specially considering how very very brief her apereance is.
as for her ability to be both a sorceress and a martial artist, all I have to say is: Demon-hunters.
they too are formidable sorcerers in their own right, and have martial prowess to boot, go ahead and call them sues too.
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