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Post by
Monday
Darion was killed in the Naxx era and rezzed then.Not quite, WoW Naxx isn't canon. Remember, Darion went after Naxx shortly after the Argent Dawn was formed.
That's what I meant =P I couldn't remember (read the comic awhile ago) whether he was killed in Naxx or elsewhere.
Post by
Adamsm
If he didn't care why would he have brought along Koltira and Thassarian and Mograine? Seem a little more then Fodder their.
To make sure the fodder was 'trained' enough to kill things to make it easier to take the town...and if they happened to die well...oh well, more corpses where they came from.
Darion was killed in the Naxx era and rezzed then.Not quite, WoW Naxx isn't canon. Remember, Darion went after Naxx shortly after the Argent Dawn was formed.
That's what I meant =P I couldn't remember (read the comic awhile ago) whether he was killed in Naxx or elsewhere.
He didn't die in Naxx; he died shortly after his father's spirit killed Renault, then to break the curse on the blade, Darion gave up his own life, and headed off towards Naxx, his body belonging to the Scourge, and the Blade his 'prisoner'.
Post by
Skreeran
If he didn't care why would he have brought along Koltira and Thassarian and Mograine? Seem a little more then Fodder their.
To make sure the fodder was 'trained' enough to kill things to make it easier to take the town...and if they happened to die well...oh well, more corpses where they came from.
I still disagree. Darion and co. never really "trained" us at all (besides the trainers, but like all trainers, their canonical status is a little grey).
I think it's simpler that the Lich King already had a bunch of DKs that he had stockpiled (Darion, Thassarian, Koltira, Thorval, etc. who are all known to have died back in the second war), and since he had lots and lots, if they happened to dieat Light's Hope... "oh well, more corpses where they came from."
I mean, it makes sense that a good portion of the 10,000 Scourge forces were recently resurrected, but I don't think that the Acherus knights were risen solely for the purpose of a suicide mission. We know that Thorval, Darion, Koltira, and Thassarian weren't. I think it's far more likely that they were risen exactly the same as any other Death Knight as a general purpose unit, to be used as necessary later on, and at some point the Lich King decided to use his extras to attack Light's Hope.
I mean, there've been a number of incidents in history where a unit has been sacrificed for a strategic advantage, but I don't think any of those units were conscripted solely for the purpose of being sacrificed.
Post by
457614
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
well, the DK's that now compose the "Hand of Suffering" unit in icecrown, where do they fit? second gen? or the so-called third?
quite honestly I see no diference between them.
First gen was VERY diferent from the rest, as it was orc warlock souls transfered to human knight corpse, and where essentially caster units, unfit to fight at melee.
Second gen were heavy armored units, using runeblades and necromantic magic to enhance their physical prowess.
third gen....... is exactly the same, and I mean EXACTLY the same as the second, only diference being that second were created in the third war, and third gen was created 6 months before WOTLK.
so why are we still diferenciating them? all DKs (the ones from the ebon blade, the ones from the host of suffering, the ones from naxx, and the ones from the scarlet onslaugh) are exactly the same, they use the same skills, the same training, the same weapons...... There is no indication (on lore or on gameplay) that the ebon knights were trained weaker than the other scourge knights to be used as sacrificial lambs, need I remind you that these knights won a WAR against the scarlet crusade in less than a few months?
they were trained just like every other death knight (by Razzovious, one of the most powerfull DK's on the scourge) and were sent against the scarlets, and against the dawn, if they win, well victory for the lich king, if they die, well they would attract Tirion, and again victory for the lich king.
the only reason that plan went south is due to the unexpected light of dawn, and due to the DK's losing their brain-washing.
also, WHEN exactly did Kil'jaeden made DK's? as far as I know, when ner'zul was captured, he was made the lich king, blocked in an iceblock, and his former death knights were made into regular liches. I don't recall Kil'jaeden ever making his own version of Death Knights. Now, Mal'ganis did made his own DKs for the scarlet onslaught, but these are the exact same ones from the scourge.
Post by
Skreeran
also, WHEN exactly did Kil'jaeden made DK's? as far as I know, when ner'zul was captured, he was made the lich king, blocked in an iceblock, and his former death knights were made into regular liches. I don't recall Kil'jaeden ever making his own version of Death Knights. Now, Mal'ganis did made his own DKs for the scarlet onslaught, but these are the exact same ones from the scourge.Kil'jaeden didn't. Gul'dan did, and Ner'zhul did, and Mal'ganis did, but not Kil'jaeden.
Not sure who said that.
Of course, Ner'zhul got his necromantic powers from Kil'jaeden, but Kil'jaeden never made his own Death Knights.
Post by
Adamsm
third gen was created 6 months before WOTLK.That's the point; they are the third wave of Death Knights, created enmass instead of just a few 'powerful' ones here and there.
And yeah; Kil'Jaeden taught the nercomancy to the Orcs, but beyond that, he'd be the grandfather to them, while Gul'dan and Ner'zhul/Arthas are the fathers, and Mal'ganis is the creepy step-father heh.
Post by
Skreeran
But much of the "3rd Gen," if you're talking about the Knights of Acherus,
wasn't
created 6 months before WotLK. We don't know when they were created. We know when Darion, Thorval, Koltira, Thassarian and the player DK were created, but other than them, we don't know. Yes, there were a few Death Knights being reborn alongside the player (seen in scripted events in Acherus), and we have a registry in Acherus, and that may indicate that there were many who were resurrected shortly before the battle at New Avalon, but that doesn't mean that they were created solely for the purpose.
It's clear that many knights in Acherus were created before Acherus itself.
It's clear that many Acherus knights are very, very powerful (Darion, Crok, Thassarian, Koltira, and many other knights of the Ebon Blade. Even the player Death Knights count, if you consider that they can help kill Malygos, Yogg-Saron, and the Lich King himself.)
The knights of Acherus wiped out the Scarlet Enclave without even trying, and then went on to wipe out the elite Scarlet Onslaught in Icecrown.
These facts lead me to believe that there is no hard distinction between 2nd generation DKs and so-called 3rd generation. There's no hard stop in time between them, and there's no clear difference in power. They seem to be exactly the same as 2nd generation, and so I think we should call them that. Obviously there is a slight difference between the Death Knights of Acherus and the rest of the Scourge Death Knights (mainly in purpose and training), but not enough to call them a seperate generation. And they certain;y weren't weaker.
I mean, the Ebon Blade in Northrend acts like an elite, unstoppable legion. They suffer no major defeats, even when they assault the Shadow Vault, and they've shown themselves to be able to stand up to and even surpass Scourge forces of equal numbers and rank.
Post by
Rankkor
plus I've still yet to find ANY indication lorewise that the lich king made the ebon knights weaker on purpose so they died.
just because on the third war DKs were a chosen few, and today DKs are a dime a dozen (both ingame and lorewise) mean nothing, it's the same class, the same spells, the same training, the same strenght.
there is absolutely no distiction between them. If we were to follow your logic, then there is a first-gen Shaman on the horde, and second gen.
because before the corruption of the horde, shamans were abundant, there were LOTS of them, but today only a few are chosen.
just because today there are fewer shaman, does it means they are automatically stronger than the more abundant shaman of the past?
Mass production doesn't diminish the quality of the product.
if anything, back on the third war, the lich king only made a few DKs because he was locked in a big frikking iceblock, once he was out he was able to mass produce his strongest fighters.
Post by
Adamsm
Even the player Death Knights count, if you consider that they can help kill Malygos, Yogg-Saron, and the Lich King himself.That's the experience factor though.
But, it's on the
Death Knight
page under the 'Lore' section: Immortal Soldiers of the Horde(G1), Champions of the Lich King(G2) and The Ebon Blade(G3):The Ebon Blade
A new group of death knights, the Death knights of Acherus, was later created by the Lich King to garrison the necropolis of Acherus: The Ebon Hold for the ultimate purpose of assaulting Light's Hope Chapel and destroying the Argent Dawn. In the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, these death knights are freed from the will of the Lich King and ally themselves with their former factions. Working closely under the guiding blade of Highlord Darion Mograine and the bolstered Argent Crusade, the newly-freed death knights have begun their march to Northrend.
The Knights of the Ebon Blade is a faction consisting of the renegade death knights that broke free of the Lich King's control after the battle of Light's Hope Chapel (in other words, player-created death knights). Led by Highlord Darion Mograine, the Knights of the Ebon Blade have allied themselves with the Alliance and the Horde with the help of Highlord Tirion Fordring of the Knights of the Silver Hand, and have pledged to do their part in defeating their former master, the Lich King. Their main base is Acherus: The Ebon Hold, taken from the Scourge after breaking free. It should be noted that the Knights of the Ebon Blade are not a separate player faction such as the Alliance and Horde. For the purposes of gameplay, player-created death knights still belong to either the Alliance or Horde depending on their race.
Post by
Behelich
As a side note, I think that a 3rd gen death knight is more than able to win a duel against Teron Gorefiend, provided he or she makes it that far. Game mechanic, but still.
Post by
Skreeran
Dude, Wowpedia isn't always right. That entire paragraph on the Acherus DKs is unsourced.
And then it never says that they're a seperate generation. I still maintain that "3rd gen" Death Knights are exactly the same as 2nd gen, and certainly not weaker.
Post by
Adamsm
/shrug Then agree to disagree; but even from the quests you see in game, especially at the end where the Lich King admits it was all a gambit to draw out Tirion and wipe out the Dawn, and that the entire garrison of Archerus was meant to be wiped out if it was required. And it might not be 'sourced' but it's been on that page since the start of Wrath itself.
I also wouldn't say they are 'exactly' the same either; there are some differences between the two; the G2 Death Knights are a mix of those slaughtered and raised up by the Scourge and those who willingly gave up their existence and joined the Scourge(Rivendare and his ilk), but the WoW DK's are one and all, those who had been killed and raised up. And of course..spell/game mechanics, which don't factor into lore heh.
And the generations could go with the 'time period' they are released with; WC2 for G1, WC3 for the G2 and WoW for the G3.
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think the generations necessarily go with the time period, but rather with their nature. Second War Death Knights are obviously very different from Third War Death Knights, after all. And I don't believe that TLK just stopped making DKs after the TFT and then abruptly resumed 6 months before WotLK. I think that rather than a solid line between the Acherus DKs and the others, it's more of a gradient, with Death Knights continuing to be made all throughout Vanilla and TBC. Lots of people died in the plaguelands after all...
Post by
Rankkor
plus why is nobody mentioning the HUNDREDS of death knights stacioned on naxx (prior to the ebon blade) and the hundreds that make the host of suffering on icecrown and the (still in construcion) maly'kriss necropolis?
again, the only reason wowpedia separates the ebon knights from other Dks is because the ebon knigths are the only Dks that left the scourge.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
585087
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
457614
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
On the topic of dk's I have a quick question, what happend to the rest of the gen 1s? I mean all of the ones that left with ner'zhul were from his clan and the ones that followed him. But guldan made the first gen for all of the different clans so why is the only one wandering around in game is gorefiend?
Quite a few slain during the Second War and Beyond the Dark Portal, those who were with Ner'zhul were transformed into the first wave of Lichs, and others escaped through their own portals and are out there somewhere....we might see them in the future expansions.
Post by
Skreeran
Don't forget about
the Ghostriders of Karabor.
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