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Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, always happens to the Trolls; the original Horde promised to wipe out the High Elves for the Amani... and they failed, and Zul'jin was captured, lost a limb and an eye for his trust in Doomhammer. History is repeating.
Also, remember this is a TFH: Tin Foil Hat Edition, as in, the musings of a person not official Blizzard lore:
The Deathwing Conspiracy.
Post by
Skreeran
You're always saying that the night elves would have attacked anyway - that is of no concern to me whatsoever. The fact is when the Shatterspears went into the Horde, they sealed the deal, and the night elves attacked them. The trolls made a bad decision not making sure that they were well fortified. Their faults.So what were they supposed to do then, hmm?
Let's say they turned down the Horde, hoping that the Night Elves don't take their land and resources. What if the Night Elves attacked them then? They wouldn't have stood a chance. Meanwhile, the Horde is sailing to Kalimdor anyway to take the strategic position by force.
I suppose you could not fault the trolls for anything at that point, but it ends with them just as dead as they become after joining the Horde. The difference is, when they joined the Horde, they were choosing the option that gave them a better chance at survival.
Strong enemy vs. weak self is a worse situation than strong enemy, vs. weak self and strong friend.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
strong enemy, vs. weak self and strong friend.
But that's just it! It was only strong enemy vs weak self at that point. The Horde didn't arrive to help them.
The trolls could have simply said:
"Hey Thrall, listen, we're afraid that the night elves are going to attack us, and we need your help. Anyway, could we keep the fact that we're joining the Horde private so that we have enough time to prepare for the night elves? Thanks."
That's the Horde's fault, not the Trolls. They had as reasonable expectation that the Horde would be able to help them.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
The night elves no longer saw the ShatterspearA group of trolls, with a fortified village, in their lands.... yeah, had the Night Elves been able to get at them ahead of the time, before the Cataclysm opened it up for easy access, they would have; all Elf nations hate the troll tribes with the same furor the trolls hate them, they are the original ultimate enemies on Azeroth. Being part of the Horde only gives the other Alliance races a reason to attack them after all.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I view the Shatterspear joining the Horde as the last straw that broke the camel's back to the Night Elves.
Not really; during the Third War, the Night Elves attacked the forces of both the Horde and the Alliance right off the back, no attempt at diplomacy or parley; they are a war nation, who strike first and question later. And again, this is an entire village of Trolls on Night Elf land; it would be the same if a sudden hidden village of Elves were discovered in a Darkspear area, the trolls would do their best to attack and destroy it right away.
And before anyone says; Well, we've(the players) knew about the village forever... that doesn't work in the actual world: yes the Night Elves have sentinels on hippogryphs, but that wouldn't be enough to wipe it out as the main army couldn't get up to it. Once Cata opens a pass though... all bets are off; it doesn't matter if they are Horde, alone or what have you, they are trolls on lands of the Night Elves and need to be driven out and killed(the more hoped upon ending).
Night elves are not fluffy bunny types; hell, if the rumours are right, they evolved from the trolls and have a hatred for their parent race. The Night Elves are just as violent and vicious as any other race, and the attack on Shatterspear is merely one more facet of that. Again, this mimics the Amani Trolls joining the original Horde during the Second War; the Horde failed on it's promise to wipe out the High Elves, and they ended up losing a leader for a time.... and he was tortured by the Elves to boot.
Post by
Skreeran
Alright, I was trying to sleep but my nose was stuffed up and I kept sneezing and I can't sleep right now (god knows I want to).
Anyway, so while I was laying awake in bed, I thought of this:
Had the night elves gone to Splintertree Post or Razor Hill and killed everyone there, down to the last innocent woman and child, I'd still be pissed.
This is my tribe though, and that makes me even angrier.
So let me say this clearly:
What the Night Elves are doing/did to the Shatterspears is abhorrent. I think that every innocent civilian in this war, Horde and Alliance alike, deserve to be treated with compassion and fairness, despite their faction leanings. The Night Elves aren't just
warring
with the Shatterspears because they are Horde; they are
murdering
the Shatterspears because the are Horde.
I'm sure someone will bring up Gilneas in a pathetic attempt to justify this atrocity, and I have two responses to that:
A. The Shatterspears in no way deserve to be punished for something the Forsaken - a race on the other side of the world - has done. That's like killing every man, woman and child in a small Italian village because they are allied with Nazi Germany. It's just not right.
B. Even Sylvanas, one of the coldest, most merciless leaders in the world, offered the Gilneas Liberation Front a chance to surrender and retreat.
Here's what Sylvanas said:
Sylvanas Windrunner says: Is Gilneas worth the lives that have been lost? The lives that will be lost? You cannot win.
...
Sylvanas Windrunner says: I now present you with a choice - a choice that I was never given.
Sylvanas Windrunner says: I offer you the life of Lorna for your unconditional surrender.
...
Sylvanas Windrunner says: Now leave here, Crowley, and never return.
And here's what the elves said:
See to it that every last building is destroyed and every last troll killed. We can't have them coming back for revenge when we're less prepared, can we?
So again, I say:
%$#@. The. Night. Elves.
This is
wrong.
There is no justifying this. This is a war crime, and a big one at that.
And again, this is
my
tribe. I've been personally attached to this tribe since before Wrath of the Lich King, and it really pisses me off to see them massacred like this.
Post by
GVHB
Before the Night elves attacked the Shatterspears, they have already moved down their vale and built a
War
Camp in Darkshore. It was matter of time before the Horde attacked the elves from behind from those camp. I don't agree with killing the tribe down to the last man, but the Trolls were mobilizing against the elves, they just acted before their enemies did.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
GVHB
As far as I know, there isn't any indication that the elves were going to attack the Shatterspear before they moved down their vale. If there is, please enlighten me.
Post by
Rankkor
Alright, I was trying to sleep but my nose was stuffed up and I kept sneezing and I can't sleep right now (god knows I want to).
Anyway, so while I was laying awake in bed, I thought of this:
Had the night elves gone to Splintertree Post or Razor Hill and killed everyone there, down to the last innocent woman and child, I'd still be pissed.
This is my tribe though, and that makes me even angrier.
So let me say this clearly:
What the Night Elves are doing/did to the Shatterspears is abhorrent. I think that every innocent civilian in this war, Horde and Alliance alike, deserve to be treated with compassion and fairness, despite their faction leanings. The Night Elves aren't just
warring
with the Shatterspears because they are Horde; they are
murdering
the Shatterspears because the are Horde.
I'm sure someone will bring up Gilneas in a pathetic attempt to justify this atrocity, and I have two responses to that:
A. The Shatterspears in no way deserve to be punished for something the Forsaken - a race on the other side of the world - has done. That's like killing every man, woman and child in a small Italian village because they are allied with Nazi Germany. It's just not right.
B. Even Sylvanas, one of the coldest, most merciless leaders in the world, offered the Gilneas Liberation Front a chance to surrender and retreat.
Here's what Sylvanas said:
Sylvanas Windrunner says: Is Gilneas worth the lives that have been lost? The lives that will be lost? You cannot win.
...
Sylvanas Windrunner says: I now present you with a choice - a choice that I was never given.
Sylvanas Windrunner says: I offer you the life of Lorna for your unconditional surrender.
...
Sylvanas Windrunner says: Now leave here, Crowley, and never return.
And here's what the elves said:
See to it that every last building is destroyed and every last troll killed. We can't have them coming back for revenge when we're less prepared, can we?
So again, I say:
%$#@. The. Night. Elves.
This is
wrong.
There is no justifying this. This is a war crime, and a big one at that.
And again, this is
my
tribe. I've been personally attached to this tribe since before Wrath of the Lich King, and it really pisses me off to see them massacred like this.
amen to that bro'
FINNALY I'm seeing the balance show up.
ya know, I don't mind it when 1 faction gets some loving if the second one gets it too, the same as I don't mind a faction getting the short end of the stick if the other one gets it too eventually.
so far (again, SO FAR) I've seen nothing but bad publicity for the horde, horrible quests in wich the horde does horrible stuff, cold crimes against life and nature, and had not seen the first alliance quest in wich THEY were the bad guys.
now for the first (and hopefully not the last) time I'm seeing a quest in wich without a single spec of doubt THEY are the bad guys.
this is what I call balance.
hopefully some other "skeletons in the closet" will show up for the alliance.
also speaking of balance, I did saw a lot of loving for the alliance in several alliance quest, and now saw some loving for the horde too (garrosh killing krom'gar, and sylvannas letting the Gilnean Liberation Front live when she could had easily wipe them out).
I don't mind more quests wich show the bad side of the horde AS LONG AS blizzard aslo adds quests that show the bad side of the alliance.
that being said, Night elves went from my ultimate favorite race in warcraft 3, to the race I hate the most in wow. This doesn't really comes as a surprise.
now skree, we can add this little elven quest to that infamous list of "reasons that the horde has for hating the alliance".....
Post by
Adamsm
now skree, we can add this little elven quest to that infamous list of "reasons that the horde has for hating the alliance".....Well for the Shatterspear/Darkspear; the BE's and Forsaken wouldn't care after all: Just more living killing the living for the dead heads and 'Trolls dying who cares' for the BE's.
Post by
Rankkor
now skree, we can add this little elven quest to that infamous list of "reasons that the horde has for hating the alliance".....Well for the Shatterspear/Darkspear; the BE's and Forsaken wouldn't care after all: Just more living killing the living for the dead heads and 'Trolls dying who cares' for the BE's.
they are part of the horde, and the list is called "reasons that the HORDE has for hating the alliance"
not list of for hating the alliance.
it was made by Zurizen (nasty NASTY case of tunnel vision rite there) going all self-righteous about the reasons the alliance had for hating the horde, and at the same time asking what posible reasons could the horde have for hating the alliance.
but we're getting out of topic here :P
getting back on topic, anyone knows what's the name of that quest in wich sylvannas lets the Gilnean Liberation Front live? (seriously, WEIRD 180º turn for her, why didn't she did that during the war on gilneas? or andorhal?)
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, I know which thread you meant Rank, but it is true that certain aspects of the 'Horde hate Alliance/Alliance hates Horde' lists are racially motivated; some groups don't care about the others.
getting back on topic, anyone knows what's the name of that quest in wich sylvannas lets the Gilnean Liberation Front live? (seriously, WEIRD 180º turn for her, why didn't she did that during the war on gilneas? or andorhal?)I still think that's more 'Blizzard doesn't like to show violence against children'(if the hostage is a child and not an adult, but it sounds like it's a kid), then as an attempt to make Sylvanas have a warm fuzzy moment.....
Post by
Rankkor
ejem,
Lorna Crowley
is a completely adult woman, a soldier who participates on the front lines during the gilnean war (both the civil war, and the war against the forsakens)
by no strech of imagination she could be considered a child.
also while is true that blizz doesn't loves to show violence against kids, several children have indirectly died in this game (darrowshire with poor pamela redpath rings a bell?)
so, anyone knows the name of the quest?
I wanna see the full dialog, and details of it.
Post by
Adamsm
See I wasn't sure if she was a kid or not; I stand corrected. And we never see any kid ever die Rank, and those that are in are ghosts... which would put them out of that heh. I'm talking actual violence against children, which isn't seen, only implied or shown the after effect.
As for the name, no clue.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm talking actual violence against children, which isn't seen, only implied or shown the after effect
yup :P true enough, to to be honest, THESE days not a single game can show direct violence against children and expect to come out alive, the "Moral guardians" will never let games like that exist.
not like in the old days like Deus Ex in wich the only rules are the ones you make....... (sighs) what is gaming becoming these days? :P
As for the name, no clue.
dang, ohh well, someone sooner or later will post it.
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