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General Lore Discussions
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229054
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451455
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229054
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Post by
Monday
who's territory is that? vengeance landing is a forsaken base, what the hell was an alliance fleet doing there? vengeance landing is nowhere near an alliance port, nor is it on the way of an alliance base.........
Just got to say, Valgarde was the only outpost there for a looooooooooooong time, and by most definitions that makes it Alliance territory (remember the argument on how Durotar is orc territory because they were there first? Alliance was there first, and they expanded across the whole area, and were only forced back when the Vrykul came. )
Post by
Rankkor
who's territory is that? vengeance landing is a forsaken base, what the hell was an alliance fleet doing there? vengeance landing is nowhere near an alliance port, nor is it on the way of an alliance base.........
Just got to say, Valgarde was the only outpost there for a looooooooooooong time, and by most definitions that makes it Alliance territory (remember the argument on how Durotar is orc territory because they were there first? Alliance was there first, and they expanded across the whole area, and were only forced back when the Vrykul came. )
I'm not talking about howling fjord in general, if we get down to the basics, the true owners of the entire zone are the natives (tuskars, vrykuls, giants and taunkas) but the horde and alliance have a relative short time in there, so their only territories are the bases they possess.
they didn't expanded into the whole zone only to be repelled back when the vrykull awakened and came out of their keep, if that was the case we would had seen several ruined former alliance outposts, but since we don't then valgarde is the only place these people have remained in.
Vengeance Landing is a small chunk of terrain that does belong to the forsaken as they arrived there first, of course Valgarde is a chunk of terrain that belong to the alliance since they arrived there. but the whole fjord really belongs to the tuskars and giants who have lived there for millenia, same for the taunka and vrykul (though the taunka were preparing to leave and move more to the north, so basically they gave up their claim to the land and resettled elsewere)
This is the Forsaken's territory, but the Alliance fleet was sailing far east of it, where the Forsaken ambushed them. After that the Alliance survivors went to Vengence Landing and counter attacked the Forsaken fleet.
darkton, I think we're going in circles here, I said PROVE it, you can talk all you want bro', but without actual proof, all u're doing is blowing hot air, where's the quotes? quests? text? hard solid lore that backs up what u're saying?
Both skreeran and myself have stated that it's imposible to actually prove who started the conflict, both skree and myself pointed that the only fact that remains is that the alliance is there, in forsaken territory, and the forsaken had only 2 choises, flee or fight.
why is the alliance there in the first place is irrelevant, the point is, they are there, and Anselm is simply not willing to be pushed aside when his main goal is to kill the lich king.
He never said anything about the Alliance interfering with their campaign against the Lich King, by "getting in their way", he means if he sees them, he will kill them.
what he actually says is "
Our mission in Northrend is to destroy Arthas
. The Alliance are but an
obstacle
that we'll crush wherever we find them"
branding him as evil, only because of that line is rather shallow, because if that's the case, a HUGE number of alliance quest-givers in borean tundra and howling fjord are equally (if not more so) evil.
his main goal above all else is to kill the lich king and by his own words, "only then will he die a happy man" the alliance is openly hostile to forsakens, this isn't like on the wrathgate, or anything else, human sees forsaken=Human atacks forsaken. and this is the same in the other band, forsakens are hostile to humans, Forsaken Sees Human= forsaken atacks human.
this has nothing to do with being good and evil, this has more to do with both races sharing a grudge, same as what happens with night elves and high elves, or what happens with amani trolls and gurubashi trolls.
they just can't stand each other and the moment they lay eyes upon the other they will fight (similar to how jews and talibans shoot each other on sight today)
so again man, either get solid proofs (other than hot air) or stop branding people as evil for no reason.
Anselm is not an ass, he treats the horde players with respect, he treats his own troops with respect, and displays honor and loyalty, as such he is one of the few "exeption" forsakens that shies away from what most forsakens are, wich is backstabing foulplaying bastards...........
Post by
306612
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Post by
Monday
Either that, or Valgarde isn't as old as we think.
It was established in RoC.
Post by
Rankkor
Either that, or Valgarde isn't as old as we think.
It was established in RoC.
it was established in reing of chaos when arthas traveled to northrend to hunt down mal'ganis, but is there any lore proof that they REMAINED there for these past 10 years? because that entire expedition was called back by king terenas, and while arthas burned down the ships, eventually he did returned to lordaeron (with his 2 liutenants and some loyalist followers)
in all these years the people of valgarde could had easily build a new ship and sail back home, what posible reason could they have to remain there in that place, away from the kingdom? specially when their king ordered them back?
they could had easily left, and now they have returned........
of course, I have no proof of that either xD so I won't push that point anymore, but leave it there for tought, Valgarde was established almost 10 years ago, but unlike the expedition on draenor, they had no reason to remain there isolated from the rest of the world, they could had sailed back at any moment, and Personally , I think they did.
unlike the draenor expedition who had to remain in honor hold due to the dark portal being closed off, (And the planet exploding) the valgarde expedition was still in azeroth, and in a forest full of usefull wood they could use to make a new ship to sail back (and the vrykull were dormant at the time, only the call of the lich king awoke them, so is clear to say that most of the fjord was a peacefull zone, as Taunkas are hermits living on the northern parts, and tuskars are very friendly and diplomatic)
Post by
Monday
Either that, or Valgarde isn't as old as we think.
It was established in RoC.
it was established in reing of chaos when arthas traveled to northrend to hunt down mal'ganis, but is there any lore proof that they REMAINED there for these past 10 years? because that entire expedition was called back by king terenas, and while arthas burned down the ships, eventually he did returned to lordaeron (with his 2 liutenants and some loyalist followers)
in all these years the people of valgarde could had easily build a new ship and sail back home, what posible reason could they have to remain there in that place, away from the kingdom? specially when their king ordered them back?
they could had easily left, and now they have returned........
of course, I have no proof of that either xD so I won't push that point anymore, but leave it there for tought, Valgarde was established almost 10 years ago, but unlike the expedition on draenor, they had no reason to remain there isolated from the rest of the world, they could had sailed back at any moment, and Personally , I think they did.
unlike the draenor expedition who had to remain in honor hold due to the dark portal being closed off, (And the planet exploding) the valgarde expedition was still in azeroth, and in a forest full of usefull wood they could use to make a new ship to sail back (and the vrykull were dormant at the time, only the call of the lich king awoke them, so is clear to say that most of the fjord was a peacefull zone, as Taunkas are hermits living on the northern parts, and tuskars are very friendly and diplomatic)
Probably for a couple reasons.
A. They couldn't find their way home (just a thought, but still.)
B. They couldn't get out past the Naga (again just a thought)
C. They didn't have the materials for boats (not necessarily the wood but the skilled personnel.)
Also there is Westguard keep and Wildervar for other settlements in Howling Fjord that don't say how old/new they are.
Post by
Rankkor
A. They couldn't find their way home (just a thought, but still.)
xD come on.......... :P the alliance would really be a terrible weak military force if this was the case, I mean is not like azeroth is that big, besides, arthas' mercs only burned the ships in dragonblight, and there's a bunch of sailors on valgarde, so yhea........ I highly doubt this was the case.
B. They couldn't get out past the Naga (again just a thought)
now this is a more logical one, indeed, although arthas took a rather big expedition force to northrend, several died in the fight against mal'ganis, and even more died when he betrayed his men and killed them off to get his first army of udead. As a result the few remnants of the original expedition force would be rather weak, and small in numbers to actually fight off the naga (or stop the forsaken from settling in)
C. They didn't have the materials for boats (not necessarily the wood but the skilled personnel.)
well the wood is pretty abundant in the fjord, and as for the rest like the skilled personnel, there's sailors in valgarde, plus masons doing the repairs of the vrykul atack, and even if they hand't the tuskar are a rather friendly hospitalary folk, I'm sure they could had helped them build boats and/or rafts if they had asked, I really doubt they would had said no.
Also there is Westguard keep and Wildervar for other settlements in Howling Fjord that don't say how old/new they are.
actually, wildervar is quite new (bunch of settlers there who came to establish new villages and so on, and Wildevar doesnt seem like it's endured a full decade of assaults by an enemy force, whereas Valgarde does, I highly doubt those 2 alliance bases are as old as valgarde)
Post by
Monday
well the wood is pretty abundant in the fjord, and as for the rest like the skilled personnel, there's sailors in valgarde, plus masons doing the repairs of the vrykul atack, and even if they hand't the tuskar are a rather friendly hospitalary folk, I'm sure they could had helped them build boats and/or rafts if they had asked, I really doubt they would had said no.
Aye, I'm talking of the Navigator's and the like. I'm assuming here they were in short supply, thus they could have been specialyl targeted by Arthas's men to stop them from sailing home after the ships were burned.
actually, wildervar is quite new (bunch of settlers there who came to establish new villages and so on, and Wildevar doesnt seem like it's endured a full decade of assaults by an enemy force, whereas Valgarde does, I highly doubt those 2 alliance bases are as old as valgarde)
That's what I thought for Wildevar. But still, not sure on Westguard.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Adamsm
Human Politics Part 2.
Post by
451455
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Rankkor
Except the Alliance would not be in Forsaken territory if Anselm did not provoke them in the first place.
again, PROVE IT!, what proof you have that the forsaken provoked them in the first place? NONE.
if you have proof, show it, stop blowing hot air.........
But branding him evil because he is a cowardly murder is rather accurate.
again, PROVE IT, because the only hard fact known is that his troops and the alliance troops were in battle, why? it's unknown, thus you cannot use that battle as an argument to brand him evil, not unless you know the details of that battle.
prove it.
Are you saying that all of this is ok?
no, it's not ok, but then again, it's not evil, is a personal grudge between 2 civilizations, again quoting when jews and talibans shoot and bomb each other out, who's the evil one? depends on who you ask, but they only shoot and bomb each other for mere hatred, not for a root of evilness.
WoW has races that simply will never get along, such as the amani vs gurubashi trolls, High elves(And all it's subspecies like blood elves) vs Night elves, Gnomes vs Goblins (on this example is not actual hostility more like techno rivalry)
Anselm is
not
an ass, he treats the horde players with respect, he treats his own troops with respect
because they are on the same side
, and
barely
displays honor and loyalty, as such he is one of the
few "exeption"
many forsakens that
shies away from
stands for what most forsakens are, wich is backstabing foulplaying bastards...........
what the.........
ok, deconstruction mode ON:
Anselm is
not
an ass, he treats the horde players with respect, he treats his own troops with respect
because they are on the same side
,
so..... you don't like him because the only reason he treats is troops nicely is just because they are on his side? dude what the hell? you forget that so does every.single.military.leader.in.both.alliance.and.horde.
name me 1 military leader of the alliance or horde that shows respect and honor to members of the oposite factions (leaving major figures like jaina or thrall out)
and
barely
displays honor and loyalty, as such he is one of the
few "exeption"
many forsakens that
shies away from
stands for what most forsakens are, wich is backstabing foulplaying bastards...
again, what the hell? he stands for backstabing and foulplays? dude he rejected an offer to be a FRIKKING GENERAL OF THE SCOURGE because he was loyal to his people and to the horde, how in the nine circles of hell does that equals to stand for backstabing behaviour? what's wrong with you man?
most forsakens (like putress or even that apothecary in tarren mill) would had gladly jumped over and agreed to such a proposition because their loyalty was almost non-existant, they only served the horde and sylvannas out of convinience. Anselm isn't like that.
honestly darkton, you have nothing to back up your disdain for Anselm, all you have is emptyness that you cannot prove, when we ask for proof you change the topic, man for the love of god, the whole "he atacks alliance unprovoked" means jack squat if you don't have anything solid to back it up.
that would be as if I said that Varian does pacts with the burning legion, but show no lore to back that up.........
seriously......... /facepalm.
Post by
306612
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Rankkor
You can't say that the Alliance was attacked by the Forsaken, but you can't say the contrary either.
That's why I'm saying the Alliance SHOULD have attacked the Forsaken.
That was actually directed at rankkor and skreeran. I... didn't even see your post =D
believe me, I know that delt, all too well, there's not enough info to know who atacked who first. and I mean NONE not a single quest, or quote, or anything whatsoever.
the only details known are:
A: there's an alliance fleet next to a forsaken base.
B: there's the crew of some of the downed alliance ships in a makeshift camp next to the forsaken one.
C: the remnants of the alliance fleet, and the forsaken troops are in battle.
D: the forsakens won that battle.
and that's it, nothing else is known, as such using an argument like "anselm is evil because he atacked and killed alliance troops unprovoked" is nulified by lack of facts.
it's also preposterous to call him a murderer just because he fought and won a battle with alliance troops, if that was the case, every single military leader in the alliance and horde is a muderer.
let me explain something to you darkton, in an armed conflict when soldiers fight, it's not considered murder, not unless you kill unarmed personell like civilians or troops that have surrendered, now THAT is murder, but if you have an armed group in your land, or you send your own armed troops into someone elses land, that's NOT a murder, it's a battle.
the fact that the horde did not executed the alliance desertors in warsong hold speaks much of their honor, but the fact that the gnomes unleashed a tribe of magnataurs on the horde, wich did caused the death of many combatants and civilians (including taunka pilgrims) IS murder.
now if only darkton could understand this.........
Post by
229054
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