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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
451455
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Post by
Patty
Nah, they were fighting the Scarlet Crusade and prejudged the Alliance ahead of hand that they are no different. Shortly after decided to eliminate the race as a whole.
Kinda like how the humans prejudged the forsaken which tried to return home, right?
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
That's not something I quoted.......
Post by
Patty
Nah, they were fighting the Scarlet Crusade and prejudged the Alliance ahead of hand that they are no different. Shortly after decided to eliminate the race as a whole.
Kinda like how the humans prejudged the forsaken which tried to return home, right?
So the Forsaken are "return home" to Stormwind? Returning home to one's family =/= Diplomatic affairs.
That never happend, thats just what some people say when they want to think the Forsaken are innocent. No race is completely innocent in WoW. Not the green-skinned orcs, not the pious pink-skins, the overinquisitive gnomes or the forsaken.
It makes no sense whatsoevar:Yes, I have promised the Alliance all of thier lands back if they fight alongside us. After that I think I'll kill thier regent lord and back-stab everyone of them. Maybe they won't be so mad about it later and we can all be friends. Oh wait, thats not possible when thier race deserves to be exterminated. 'Their' is not spelt 'thier'. I'm saying you paraphrased something to suit your own purpose more.
Sylvanas says she
never
sent any form of diplomacy to the Alliance.Did the Alliance send any to Sylvanas?
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And actually, the thing I quoted was about the Forsaken joining the Horde; where their ambassadors were cut down as the Horde didn't realize that the Forsaken weren't Scourge, and she sent multiple ones to finally get her point through.
Post by
Rankkor
Hey I remember reading this but I can't find where it's written. Did the Forsaken ever try to rejoin the Alliance?
Nah, they were fighting the Scarlet Crusade and prejudged the Alliance ahead of hand that they are no different. Shortly after decided to eliminate the race as a whole.
dead.wrong they tried to return to their (because it's spelled "Their" not "Thier") respective homes, and no, their homes aren't in stormwind, they are in lordaeron, as soon as the mental link to the lich king got cut off, they tried to return to their family, only to be chased away as monsters, everywere they tried to go they were rejected without them doing any agression (at the time).
they never sent any embassadors simply because at the time they weren't a goverment or a faction per-se, they were a bunch of unorganized undead who regained their free will, and tried to return to the people they loved, only to see them being treated as monsters for no reason.
so, after being rejected by their loved ones, they grouped togheter under sylvannas who promised them a place they could call home, and a zone to be safe from the prejudiced of the outside world.
and as for backstabbing the alliance, sylvannas was well aware of garitho's "diplomacy" regarding non-humans, I'm sure she was aware of garithos betrayal of the blood-elves when he without any real reason sentenced them to death, so yhea, she lied to use that pig and then discarded him.
I feel bad about garithos' men, but garithos himself deserved to die and someone pee on his corpse.
the forsaken are really little diferent from the knights of the ebon blade.
think about it, they are both exactly the same, undead who regained their free will and are now free from the lich king's grasp.
the main diference between the forsaken and knights of the ebon blade, is that the latter got someone to vouch for them, to endorse them, to speak on their behalf to the leaders of the alliance and the horde. the former had none, they got freed and nobody gave a damn, quite the oposite, they got chased as monsters.
as the old saying goes "treat someone like a monster long enough, and you WILL get a monster".
had someone showed love and backup to the forsaken when they had just been released from the lich king's grasp, they would had turned out quite diferently, just look at the knights of the ebon blade and u'll see just how diferent.
Post by
Rankkor
well, I present thee, the unreleased trailer of cataclysm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x30Ghe_SdTA
(yhea it's a joke, not a real vid, but still watch it, it's extremely funny, specially the end so watch it full xD)
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
No reason? A massive army of undead was rampaging across their homeland and you think they should be asking any walking corpse that comes by if it's friend or foe? Yeah, right...
they gave the knights of the ebon blade a chance, they gave the worgen a chance, why not these? they DID tried to aproach peacefully to their family, and each got rejected and chased like a monster.
Post by
HiVolt
No reason? A massive army of undead was rampaging across their homeland and you think they should be asking any walking corpse that comes by if it's friend or foe? Yeah, right...
they gave the knights of the ebon blade a chance, they gave the worgen a chance, why not these? they DID tried to aproach peacefully to their family, and each got rejected and chased like a monster.
Considering the timeframe we're talking about though... I can't say that I blame the living family members for rejecting the dead ones. After all, this was only a short time after the mindless undead completely ravaged Lordaeron.
I mean, the Ebon Blade and Worgen did have quite a few years for people to get over all of that.
Post by
Skreeran
the main diference between the forsaken and knights of the ebon blade, is that the latter got someone to vouch for them, to endorse them, to speak on their behalf to the leaders of the alliance and the horde. the former had none, they got freed and nobody gave a damn, quite the oposite, they got chased as monsters.
as the old saying goes "treat someone like a monster long enough, and you WILL get a monster".
had someone showed love and backup to the forsaken when they had just been released from the lich king's grasp, they would had turned out quite diferently, just look at the knights of the ebon blade and u'll see just how diferent.This.
Think about it. Were the freed Scourge naturally any more malicious than the freed Scourge Death Knights? If so, why? That doesn't make any sense. One can make an argument about Sylvanas being or not being more naturally "evil" than the Acherus Death Knights, but not on the individual Forsaken level. Your average freed Scourge is no worse than your average freed Death Knight. What's the difference?
Well, the difference is that one of them was accepted into their old society. The other was not. You might say that the Forsaken never tried, but that is most likely because in trying, they would have been killed.
I mean, think about it. The Knights of the Ebon Blade were accepted into their old societies, and they willingly went. You don't think the Forsaken would have done the same thing? If you don't think the Forsaken, pre-Sylvanas, would have gone back to the Alliance if given the chance, explain your reasoning.
So, why then did they need Sylvanas? Sylvanas was charismatic. Sylvanas gave them purpose. Sylvanas gave them a safe home and someone to blame for their condition.
They would not have need Sylvanas if they were accepted in the same way that the Death Knights were.
You can give reasonable explanation for why they were not accepted, but please don't tell me that they never wanted to go back ever.
Post by
Rankkor
there's one phrase said by thrall after the battle of the undercity that has me thinking......
he said "if only you were here "old friend" you would know what to do"........
now I'm gonna go ahead and asume he was refering either to Doomhammer, or more likely grom hellscream, but and here's the kicker, why can't he contact them?
shamans are more than simple manipulators and benders of the elements, they are a living conduict with the dead.
unlike a necromancer who bends the dead to their will, a shaman respects and attunes themselves to the old spirits, of the world and of their people as well, this is proven in nagrand when we get the chance of comuning with the older spirits of the mag'har thanks to greatmother geya's help being herself a shaman..............
if a shaman can freely talk to the spirits, that means their wisdom, is avaliable to any who will listen, if so, why doesn't thrall simply speaks to the spirits of Doomhammer or hellscream?.
is not like they woudn't wanna answer to him, after all both of them respected thrall tremendously.
Post by
Orranis
there's one phrase said by thrall after the battle of the undercity that has me thinking......
he said "if only you were here "old friend" you would know what to do"........
now I'm gonna go ahead and asume he was refering either to Doomhammer, or more likely grom hellscream, but and here's the kicker, why can't he contact them?
shamans are more than simple manipulators and benders of the elements, they are a living conduict with the dead.
unlike a necromancer who bends the dead to their will, a shaman respects and attunes themselves to the old spirits, of the world and of their people as well, this is proven in nagrand when we get the chance of comuning with the older spirits of the mag'har thanks to greatmother geya's help being herself a shaman..............
if a shaman can freely talk to the spirits, that means their wisdom, is avaliable to any who will listen, if so, why doesn't thrall simply speaks to the spirits of Doomhammer or hellscream?.
is not like they woudn't wanna answer to him, after all both of them respected thrall tremendously.
That's a Spirit Walker, a different type of Shaman. Thrall's type is more of a Elemental Priest type thing.
Post by
Adamsm
Probably because there is no where on Azeroth to do it; the Orcs talked to the Ancestors within Oshu'gun after all. Besides, the spirits of the Ancestors aren't here to hold our hands, they expect the current generation to do it on their own and not rely on the past.
Post by
Rankkor
Probably because there is no where on Azeroth to do it; the Orcs talked to the Ancestors within Oshu'gun after all. Besides, the spirits of the Ancestors aren't here to hold our hands, they expect the current generation to do it on their own and not rely on the past.
and yet when medivh told thrall to travel to kalimdor, thrall said " the spirits tell me that I should trust him"
this means he CAN talk to the spirits of dead peeps, and they WANT to help him.
maybe not ALL THE TIME, but ocationally.
when I read (or is it Rode? what's the past tense of Reading?) rise of the horde, I saw that matriarch of the frostwolf clan being visited by her ancestor, and by the sounds of the talk, it seems they chatted often.
this further evidences that a shaman can ask the spirits whenever they want to, is the spirits who decide when or if they wish to answer, I just can't see neither doomhammer nor hellscream refusing to answer thrall in a moment of hesitation like in the aftermatch of the battle for UC.
Post by
Adamsm
and yet when medivh told thrall to travel to kalimdor, thrall said " the spirits tell me that I should trust him"Not the Ancestors; he's talking about the Spirits of Air, Earth, Water, Fire, and the Wilds. And even in Rise of the Horde(and it is read), the Greatmother was told to bring Durotan to the Crystal Mountain for testing.
There is a difference between the Spirits of the Worlds and the Ancestors spirits.
Post by
Rankkor
Not the Ancestors; he's talking about the Spirits of Air, Earth, Water, Fire, and the Wilds
k, I'm willing to back down a bit there since there's no way of knowing if he's refering to the elemental spirits (who also do talk to the shamans) and the spirits of the ancestors, so this bit I'll leave it there.
And even in Rise of the Horde(and it is read), the Greatmother was told to bring Durotan to the Crystal Mountain for testing.
yhea i know, but it was an ancestor not an elemental spirit who told her to bring durotan for testing, wich means the ancestors DO meddle ocationally, when they deem it apropiate. not only that, by the way the ancestor speaks to her, it was evident that they chatted often, not rarely as in once every 50 years.
in a moment of extreme necesity such as the aftermatch of the battle for UC, if thrall had asked Doomhammer for his wisdom, or hellscream, would they refuse him?
Post by
Adamsm
More a question of 'If they could respond?'; after all, most of the Ancestors who spoke to the Orcs on Draenor were shamans and the like, it's entirely possible that the non-shaman type spirits can't come back to speak with them.
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