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(tank) t8 + t9 bonus = ?
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Post by
357881
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
Assuming you are using a fast tanking weapon (and not a slow DPS weapon), Devastate will do slightly less damage than Revenge but it does more threat.
Revenge still has the best threat per rage and damage per rage number.
In all honestly, you could drop Improved Revenge talent and tank using only Shield Slam and Devastate if you wanted to.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
shockwave>conc blow>shield slam>revenge>devastate.
Stil on the bottom.
Post by
marklartank
Hey, so I have 2 pieces of t8 and 2 pieces of t9, giving me 10% extra crit chance and 5% extra damage for my devastates (which I also have glyphed).
That being said, where on the priority list is my Devastate? My initial guess is instead of
Shield Slam > Revenge > Devastate
it is
Shield Slam > Devastate > Revenge
or is Revenge still better? Any help would be much appreciated.
well, if you went to the second priority list, you would never get to revenge, would you?
it might work for you, but i guess if you do that, you would drop improved revenge, and maybe think about taking puncture again.
i still use revenge because it costs so little rage and still can proc S&B.
as far as putting SW/CB at the top of your priority list as one poster has suggested... it's not something i've looked at lately, but last time i did the numbers did not support it.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
Conclusion: Devastate has much higher TPS when tanking a boss
there is something wrong with your conclusion. you took the revenge cooldown into account when comparing the two abilities, but this is really irrelevant when deciding which of the two buttons to push.
yes, obviously devastate will do more tps if you push it every 1.5 seconds for an entire fight, compared to pushing revenge every 5 seconds and doing nothing in between.
the question in making your priority list is what to push when more than one ability is OFF cooldown at the same time. assuming your numbers are correct, revenge does more average damage and costs less rage, making the decision quite easy.
now, how does this change with 0/2 improved revenge...?
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
fight length = 120 sec.
auto-attack and H.S. swing time = 1.5 sec
specials/GCD swing time = 1.5 sec.
120/1.5 = 80 swings (whites, HS's, or GCD's)
assume 60% swings are GCD's = 48 swings
auto-swings, 40% = 32 swings
assume 75% auto-swings are HS's = 24 HS's.
What? If the fight time is 120 seconds, you get 80 GCDs AND 80 Auto Attacks/Heroic Strikes.
This is a whole lot of math for nothing, by the way. All of the armor reduction, stance and damage multipliers: none of it matters since it applies to both abilities. Also, 4500 is a better estimate for raid buffed AP.
Another thing wrong is that the Attack Power contribution to Devastate is normalized. So it should be (AP/14*2.4 + DPS*Weapon Speed) = Weapon Damage
The biggest thing you are missing here is Crit. Devastate has 15% extra crit from talents, and this is completely ignoring Set Bonuses.
Like I said before; Devastate will do slightly less damage, a bit more threat, but costs 10 more rage.
Just as a quick test, I went and found a wondering elite guy to attack. As I said before, all of the Armor mitigation stuff doesn't matter since it scales equally. Anyway, here's what I found, just spamming Devastate and Revenges, totally unbuffed with 3600 AP.
Devastate Normal Hit Average: 1450
Devastate Crit Average: 2900
Revenge Normal Hit Average: 1800
Revenge Crit: 3600
Imp Revenge Normal Hit: 2160
Imp Revenge Crit: 4320
Revenge Crit Rate: 5%
Devastate Crit Rate: 20%
Devastate Average Damage = (1450*120%) = 1740
Revenge Average Damage = (1800*105%)=1890
Imp Revenge Average Damage = (2160*105%)=2268
Devastate Threat = (1740 + 630 + 360) = 2730
Revenge Threat = (1890 + 212) = 2102
Imp Revenge Threat = (2268 + 212) = 2480
So including crit into the equation, totally unbuffed:
Devastate does 92% of Revenge's Damage but 130% of Revenge's Threat.
Devastate does 76% of Imp Revenge's Damage but 110% of Imp Revenge's Threat.
Also note that Revenge damage does scale with attack power better than Devastate does. Devastate gains 0.1714 damage per attack power (pre modifiers), whereas Revenge gains 0.207 damage per attack power. Devastate's Threat scales much better with AP though; 0.1714 from damage (mitigated) + 0.1 on top, vs just 0.207 from damage (mitigated).
If you have a deepwounds build, this pushes things up for Devastate a little bit more. Essentially, you can add the Deep Wounds damage to whatever ability activated the Deep Wounds. Because of Devastate's increased crit rate, it will give you more DW Procs than Revenge.
As for Shockwave and CBlow, they'll do 2k damage and 2k threat (using same situation as the data above). So slightly more damage than devastate and revenge, slightly less damage than Imp Revenge, and all around less threat than Devastate, Revenge, and Imp Revenge.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
357881
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
What? If the fight time is 120 seconds, you get 80 GCDs AND 80 Auto Attacks/Heroic Strikes.
this statement just doesn't make sense to me. If the weapon swing speed is 1.5 seconds, how can it do 160 swings in 120 seconds?
...
You have a Global Cooldown on active abilities, things like Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Thunder Clap. This GCD is 1.5 seconds. Over 2 minutes, 120 seconds, you can do 80 of these GCD abilities.
White Damage (auto attacks) are totally different. If your weapon is 1.5 speed you'll do 80 white attacks. If your weapon is 2.6 speed you'll do 46 white attacks over those 2 minutes. You can convert these white attacks into Heroic Strikes (which is an "On Next Melee" ability).
So yes, you get 80 GCD abilities and 80 white swings (any percentage of which could be Heroic Strikes) if you are using a 1.5 speed weapon.
Note that any haste rating, and haste from buffs in your raid, will actually increase the number of White Damage attacks you get over that two minutes, but you will always be limited to 80 GCD abilities.
Post by
marklartank
Also, as has been pointed out to me before by you and others... why should a tank care about maximizing damage? The goal is to maximize threat.
because things die faster.
it's certainly not one of your top priorities, but lemme give you this example:
you start a fight, using your max threat rotation. about 1/2 way through the fight, you glance at omen and see the closest dps is at 75%. now, which would be more useful for the rest of the fight - more threat or more dps?
threat is a funny thing, because once you have enough of it, more is of little value. there is never too much dps in a raid, however; having wiped on bosses at <1%, i can testify that every little bit helps.
from the example above, improved revenge does 30% more damage than devastate, and scales better with raid buffs. given the much lower rage cost, and the fact that there aren't many fights that keep me at a full rage bar, i'm not dropping revenge just yet.
the threat part is interesting though; i might try skipping revenge completely on something like hodir.
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
But don't forget that you just can't do as many Revenges as you can Devastates during a boss fight. You are constrained by a 5 second cool-down with Revenge while Devastate is only constrained by rage.. which *should* be plentiful during a boss fight.
I would think that even if rage were an issue that you would do at least 20% more Devastates than Revenges and the damage would be about the same in the end
again, the CD of revenge is irrelevant to the decision at hand. the only time this decision needs to be make is when SS is on CD and both revenge and devastate are up. the only thing that matters is what button i will push at that moment - in 1.5s i'm going to have a whole new decision to make.
choice A: i push revenge (2268 dmg)
choice B: i push devastate (1885 dmg)
this gap will widen with raid buffs.
likewise, you will not do 20% more attacks if you skip revenge. given this decision 102 times in a fight:
scenario A: 68 devastates, 32 revenges
scenario B: 102 devastates
yes, i did more devastates in scenario B, but i had the same number of overall attacks either way. scenario A is still more dps.
this all assumes you are comfortable with your threat; there is no threat spike that's going to close a gap of 30%. if however threat is an issue, then i recommend the glyph of vigilance - probably the single most effective threat boost you will find.
Such a build ensures abundant rage in-flow
i've been chasing this magic dragon for a long time now... still have yet to catch him :)
Post by
303745
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
i'd never wait 1/2 second for revenge; much better to use the GCD on something else.
i'm actually really glad furrymammoth asked this question, because i never would have looked at it so closely otherwise. the thought that we might be able to get more tps by skipping revenge is quite interesting.
i will definitely try it out next time i tank hodir. however, for most other stuff, i think i'll keep using revenge. first, i'm not spec'd into DW and haven't been for a while now. improved demo + improved CS is more important for the content i'm working on.
and yes, rage inflow is definitely better now with the shield spec buff, but 5 rage per miss is not a lot if you avoid 3 attacks in a row - especially for bosses with slow swing timers. i notice the improvement a lot more in heroics where i pull lots of mobs than i do on boss fights.
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