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Discussion: Were the Orcs needed for the Battle of Mt. Hyjal?
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Post by
Skreeran
Alright, I've seen several hardcore Alliance supporters say that the orcs killing Cenarius was more wrong than their presence at Hyjal was right.
That is to say, I've heard people say that if the Orcs hadn't killed Cenarius, the orcs wouldn't have been needed at Hyjal.
I believe this is wrong. Here I hope to dispel this once and for all.
Here's is my reasoning:
1. Mannoroth may have been afraid of Cenarius (as I've heard people say, although personally, I think he seems more eager to fight him again in WC3), but I don't think his presence alone would have made a very big dent against Mannoroth, Azgalor, Rage Winterchill, and Archimonde.
2. Logically, claiming that the world would be better off with Cenarius battling the Burning Legion and Scourge forces at Hyjal than the orcs implies that Cenarius is at least as strong as the orcs at Hyjal. I really doubt this. If two orcs (albeit legendary orcs) were able to defeat Mannoroth, I imagine the force of hundreds or thousands of orcs would be much greater. Especially when you consider the combat mechanics there. Cenarius might have a chance standing against Mannoroth or Anetheron or Azgalor or Rage Winterchill alone, but together it would be much more difficult. The orcs, having greater numbers, would have an advantage. The goal on the mountain was to slow the demons down, and throwing waves and waves of hardy orcs is a much better way to accomplish that than one really powerful guy that can be overwhelmed.
3. Medivh says so! Medivh saw the future, and he said that the orcs were needed. He knew that they would kill Cenarius, and he felt the loss was outweighed by the gain.
So... Agree? Disagree? Discuss.
Post by
HiVolt
I fully agree, but if the awesome-itude of Grom could be measured, I'd actually say that they would have needed less than the force they had.
If Grom Hellscream was able to take down Cenarius, whether aided by his men, or not, and Grom was able to kill Mannoroth essentially on his own, I would say that having just 5-6 Orcish warriors who equalled up to Grom's ability would be enough, let alone the Horde forces that were present at Mount Hyjal.
Is it just me, or does it seem like all of the eternals, legion generals, and super-powerful entities out there are just blowing smoke most of the time? I mean, throughout the entire history we've got mortals taking down all of the big baddies... that's got to account for something.
Post by
Arkham
3. Medivh says so! Medivh saw the future, and he said that the orcs were needed. He knew that they would kill Cenarius, and he felt the loss was outweighed by the gain.He saw that the Orcs were needed, but how do we know he saw that Cenarius would be killed?
Sure, being the Guardian, he
might've
forseen it, but how do we know for sure?
Post by
Skreeran
3. Medivh says so! Medivh saw the future, and he said that the orcs were needed. He knew that they would kill Cenarius, and he felt the loss was outweighed by the gain.He saw that the Orcs were needed, but how do we know he saw that Cenarius would be killed?
Sure, being the Guardian, he
might've
forseen it, but how do we know for sure?I extrapolated it from his earlier quote: Know that I have seen the future and beheld the great burning shadow that is coming to consume this world. You sense it as well, don't you?If he saw the future, and the Burning Legion, it seems he'd have seen Cenarius' downfall as well.
Although, even if he didn't, he deemed the orcs needed. If Cenarius was enough to take the Legion himself, why would the orcs be needed?
Post by
Adamsm
So, depending on what he saw in Karazhan, Medivh could have known what was coming, even back when Sargeras was controlling him and helping to pull the orc's across in the first place..... *shudders* prophecy makes my head hurt.
As for the other, the Orc's were needed due to numbers, without them, the Legion and Scourge would have steamrolled in even faster to destroy the defenders, as there would have been less time for Malfurion to pull off his grand plan of blowing something up.... didn't say it was a good plan, but it was a grand one.
Post by
dhampir1989
You have to factor in Mannoroth as well.
If the orcs werent over there, Grom wouldnt have performed his semi-failed imitation of Saurfang, and done away with Mannoroth, the Legion would have had one of their mightiest commanders on hand.
Post by
Skreeran
So, depending on what he saw in Karazhan, Medivh could have known what was coming, even back when Sargeras was controlling him and helping to pull the orc's across in the first place..... *shudders* prophecy makes my head hurt.You know what I just realized?
What if Sargeras isn't actually evil, but does and says the things he does because he's fated to, rather like Dr. Manhattan. It's a little out there, but with his power, I wouldn't be surprised if he could see the future, in which case he very well might only do the things he does because he knows that he does them at that particular point in time. Trippy, I know, but if you think about Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen, it begins to make sense.
Not that I actually believe it, I don't think Blizzard would go that far, but it's food for thought. You could say the same thing for Nozdormu, although he's much less powerful.
Post by
HiVolt
So, depending on what he saw in Karazhan, Medivh could have known what was coming, even back when Sargeras was controlling him and helping to pull the orc's across in the first place..... *shudders* prophecy makes my head hurt.You know what I just realized?
What if Sargeras isn't actually evil, but does and says the things he does because he's fated to, rather like Dr. Manhattan. It's a little out there, but with his power, I wouldn't be surprised if he could see the future, in which case he very well might only do the things he does because he knows that he does them at that particular point in time. Trippy, I know, but if you think about Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen, it begins to make sense.
Not that I actually believe it, I don't think Blizzard would go that far, but it's food for thought. You could say the same thing for Nozdormu, although he's much less powerful.
For Sargeras, not so much, but for Nozdormu, definitely. If he really is the one behind the Infinite Flight, then yeah, that would make sense.
Post by
128242
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Post by
Skreeran
Then why did Medivh tell Thrall to pack up and leave for Kalimdor?
Post by
184848
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Post by
Patty
Then why did Medivh tell Thrall to pack up and leave for Kalimdor?
Because he's a pleasant chap, when he's not starting wars.
The Orcs were certainly needed. For meat-shields if anything else really. They bought the time needed, they did their job.
Post by
Adamsm
Then why did Medivh tell Thrall to pack up and leave for Kalimdor?
Because he's a pleasant chap, when he's not starting wars.
The Orcs were certainly needed. For meat-shields if anything else really. They bought the time needed, they did their job.
Yup, they died for a good cause... so their leader could /sigh as the human woman makes goo-goo eyes at him.
Post by
451455
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Post by
389776
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Post by
Skreeran
Is it not worse enough we have die hard horde fan-boys saying the victory at Hyjal was all because of the horde?Never heard that before, honestly. But I hear lots of people say that Cenarius could have done it without the orcs.
Anyway, the horde was not needed, at least not as much as people say, Medivh meant that Thrall had to come so his people could find a home, he never said "we cant do it with out you!" or anything like that. Had they not come, Cenarius would live, many night elf an Alliance settelments would have not been destroyed... I think they could have pulled it off. Grom only beat Cenarius because he had the whole Warsong army fighting with him, the battle was not 1vs1; he also had the power of Mannorth's blood to help him.I'll get back to you on that... Booting up WC3...
And stop saying Grom is a god already ffs.Of course he's not, that's Saurfang.
And it was not Thrall and Grom vs Mannorth, it looked more like just Grom vs Mannorth to me...True... Poor Thrall got bonked on the head and missed the battle... :(
Post by
Skreeran
Thrall: The demons... Are returning.
Medivh: Yes.
And only by leading your people accros the sea, to the distant lands of Kalimdor, will you have a chance to stand against them!
Medivh:
Only together, united against the shadow, will you be able to save this world from the flame.
Medivh: Have you heard nothing that I've said? The Legion comes to undo histroy and end all life! Thrall, your friends Hellscream has already fallen under the demons' influence. Soon he and your whole race will be lost forever!
Thrall: No... I'll die before I let that happen!
Medivh: Then you must rescue him immediately!
He is the key to the destiny I promised you.
However, you will need help.
Jaina: Wait! This is insane! You can't possibly expect me to--
Medivh: Destiny is at hand, young sorceress. The time to choose has come. For the fate of all who live
humanity must join forces with the Horde.
Post by
229054
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