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Will DPS DW get Nerfed? Is BCB better than Subversion?
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Post by
454670
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421511
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Post by
Eleazer
Been awhile since I was wrong, so I will freely admit I was wrong on that point. This is a lesson to everyone, always reread your tooltips to verify information before stating it. Let's make this clear though 20 percent of your damage have a chance to proc BcB. It does from 3-4 percent of my total damage on a boss fight all the time. This has been recorded countless times, but every one doing a reasonable raid boss. On some fights in may drop to 3.2 percent, but those are on heavy movement fights where my time in contact with the boss is diminished. A perfect example would be Faction Champions, where a majority of the time I am kiting, death gripping, and CCing adds, on that fight my contact with the boss is very limited so my BcB is around 2 percent.
However, this number isn't something new it's been shown on numerous WWS sheets, and been posted well over 100 times as to how BcB is generally 3-4 percent of your total damage. Your inability to understand that is your own fault. Obliterate's crit rate is well documented, if you want the numbers go check out elitistjerks. If your obliterate is only critting at a 49 percent rate, than something is wrong with you.
I raided with 3 in Subversion switched to 3 in BcB and personally saw a huge difference in both dps and threat increases. Amazingly so has every other reported switch from high end raiders. There is a reason 53/18 has been claimed by every reputable site as the number one dps spec. I am sorry that no one asked you for your opinion before posting the numerous mathematical reasons as to why it's correct and the endless supply of parse sheets that back it up. Perhaps we should resolve this by funneling all information through you just to make sure you agree with it.
You are not gaining dps by going to subversion. This is a proven fact. The difference between your 9 percent crit rate, and BcB is 1 percent that's it. BcB has a 1 percent higher dps probablity than Subversion. I don't wish to do the math over again. I never liked checking it to begin with. The bonus of Subversion is not the extended Crit rate (which suffers from Diminishing returns, and if you don't know what diminishing returns is than stop commenting on things. Yes diminishing returns affects crit) but the threat diminishing capabilities of it. BcB does not suffer from diminishing returns as the more you hit the higher the chance of BcB proc rate, There is also no ppm attached to it. This is why DW unholy goes with a fast off hand to proc Necrosis and BcB more often.
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378676
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213594
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Post by
Eleazer
It doesn't seperate MH and OH though Sam. When a crit happens it combines the two numbers together. That is not a 12k MH Oblit crit. That is a 12k Oblit - MH/OH - MH probably critted, but it added whatever the OH numbers are into the report. This is a completely common occurence with DW. His MH crit was probably significantly lower than the 12k, but he simply misunderstood how parse reports work with DW or he simply mispoke.
On a second note, those are some of the worst BcB and Razor Frost numbers I have ever seen. How in the world did you only get 2 hits of Razor Frost, and a 1 percent BcB number that is brutally horrible especially on Ignis 25 man. I have never seen those two numbers so low ever. Not any sparse sheet prior to this one. I have seen 2.3 percent, 3 percent, and even as high as 4 percent, but 1 percent is brutal. I don't know why your BcB is so low, but seems more like a personal thing.
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341986
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454670
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Post by
Eleazer
@veil - I am not wrong and the fact that your arrogance exceeds even mine is pretty impressive in and of itself. You stated earlier that there is no possible way for me to account for 4 percent of my dps than you state that you got 1 percent from one point. So it is completely possible for me to have 4 percent with three points. Please make up your mind. I never said Subversion was a waste, in fact, if you would read my statements you would see I clearly state several times that Subversion is about 1 percent less in dps that is so minimal between the two that it's not really that big of a deal. My point was not that you shouldn't take subversion, but that taking subversion does not give you the best possible dps. That the great part about subversion is that it provides a threat reduction that is why you want it. If you have trouble with threat you can give up 1 percent dps to maintain your attacks on the target. What part of that failed to get through to you?
GoD is not the best dps spec, however it is clearly a viable and good dps spec. If you would have paid attention, you would have known already that I helped push for elitistjerks to test GoD because I felt it was a much simpler rotation and that the loss of dps can be made up over time. Granted, it's not the max dps glyph, but do to simpler rotations can increase a dps with someone whose responsibilty is not to keep up the raid buff. Please read my helpful thread on DW dps and you will see that it has been stated clearly.
Having said all this while claiming 53/18 was not the top dps spec, you went out of your way to state how you could do more dps with it. Glyph of Disease is a dps loss, that's a given, however the loss is minimal. Subversion is a dps loss compared to BcB that's a given, but the benefits given by speccing into subversion over BcB are very nice if you don't have a skilled tank. You simply repeated my own statement that BcB scales better with haste, and has no bearing on ArP. The more haste you have the more dps BcB provides, I had a great amount of haste and so BcB at 4 percent is entirely possible, therefore the loss of BcB for Subversion would be a larger dps loss for me than for you.
The basics are simple - the best possible dps spec is 53/18 with Glyph of IT. However it requires alot more work and in scales much better with haste than 3/53/15
3/5-/1- is the second best dps spec and the possible difference between the two are not much possibly 1-3 percent with GoD instead of GoIT. I stated this in the 3.2 DW thread, the fact that you have no idea that I have stated that is simple proof that you arrive at your opinion of me without ever actually researching or thinking about it. If you are in the same guild with Sam, than he would have seen these and could tell you that if anything I used to push Subversion subspec and even used it for some time.
Having typed this giant wall of text - let me make it very clear. In a perfect world with equal gear levels on perfect boss fight with both of us keeping same uptime on the boss. I would outdps and total damage you, by a small margin. This would require your skill level to be on par with mine, considering your arrogance, and sam putting up with you I would say you are probably right up there :P.
Note: I have no idea what you were talking about with GoD giving you an increased strength on Obliterate? Also Sigil of awareness 700 damage to obliterate that's combining both MH and OH. You did not have a 12k MH Obliterate, that's not the way a parse sheet works. It is possible for ToT to give you duplicate crits, but parse sheets don't split up the crits - when you get a crit with an offhand it counts it as a crit for the swing. Your Obliterate hits with the MH and crits you get a hit with the offhand as well. yes there is a time delay, but it doesn't show up as two separate hits on your parse sheet. It shows up as a crit for obliterate and adds both the MH crit with the OH non-crit.
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Post by
Eleazer
Again the parse sheet clearly states a 10.9k crit that's a combined one so unless you can show me a distinct difference. I will have to say you are wrong. Secondly, I use UBA. Once again you showed a lack of research and knowledge about the person you are attacking in order to push your point. I use UBA and disagree with EJ's on it's lack of usage there.
I never said I use their dps simulator. I am talking about parse sheet totals. That's real live action. Your inability to understand that I have clearly stated numerous times that Subversive spec is better for people who can't handle the threat or rotation required by BcB spec. I have also stated clearly in the DW thread that for undergeared people going blood subspec would be more dps than unholy. However that once you get high end raid gear the BcB scales better than any other spec out there, Math and live testing were both involved in the process.
Math can only take you so far, but when live testing and results coincide with math while you don't than how is that my fault.
Now listen very closely to what I am about to mention to you. When you crit on parse sheets and just about every single combat text modifier it combines both MH/OH and gives you one number, there is no split on crits. It does the same with Mutilate on rogues. The numbers you see on the screen are sometimes in accurate especially if they disagree with what parse sheets show.
No one is arguing that you aren't a good dps, nor are we saying your dps spec is bad. Your fierce attacks are a unwarranted. The problem is your attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you, and your inexplicable ability to misquote me, misunderstand a very common principle, and not understand that no matter what you say if the Parse sheet states differently than you are wrong. Parse sheets are much more accurate than combat text. WWS is very accurate, and clearly show that you have a 10k crit, which is very nice, but that is not a 1h number that is the numbers of both the MH crit and the OH hit combined. That's the funky thing about ToT, there is no simulator as of yet that can account for UBA.
Tell you what, before you start claiming other various misinformation that you perceive about me. Read the DW thread, and you will see that every claim you have about me is based on some odd notion of how I must be dumber than you because I disagree with you. Most of your claims against me I have already stated are not true, and referred you to the thread to prove that I stated the exact thing you said I was ignorant of.
I admitted I was wrong about specials proccing BcB, but my knowledge of my class is not based on ignorance.
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Post by
pichu
well i´ve read the whole thread, ill leave here my 50 cent.
there are 2 separate topics along the 3 pages. One, is about DW being op in front of blood and unholy.
i wouldnt state that so fast. both specs (i talk about blood and DW frost)has theyre own pros/cons.
blood is burst damage= once u reach 60 rp, u can pop hysteria+DRW. thats THE MOST !@#$ING BURST EVER. that works for short fights (reminding shart3d zerg, while the 30 secs of hysteria and good use of erw, u can put 9000-9500 dps with a i219weapon), or for others where the burst phases are predictable and u can 3min time it.
on the other hand, a frost DW build would "suck" on a shart3d, mostly because u cant even stack the 10 razorcine stacks on it and hes already dead, while u are very procc dependant (km,rime, and trinkets, in my case, mjolnir runestone and greatness card) what mades it imposible to put out all the dps u could. The same goes for encounters like mimiron HM, whats very phase changy, and u dont usually spend more than 30 secs in a row hitting him. here blood really goes ahead of DW.
but there are also other fights, like "regular" patchwerk "tank&spank" fights, maybe with a little movement or downtime.
more, if u are doing those type of bosses and theres a enhan chamy on ur raid, thats where u can put out the max dps u´re able to, by using glyph of disease and saving ur frost/unholy runes for more OB instead of spending at least the frost rune on icy talons, or if u use HB glyph, many times ull need to use both runes when rime doesnt procc properly.
pointed this, i admit that i usually play frost DW instead of blood, besides being specced on both, and save blood spec for those fights i know its gonna rock.
the other part of the discussion, is going about BcB and such. Well, as i´ve stated some times on this forums, im 100% pro speccing into blood for crit+ap instead of going into unholy.
i dont know about what ur maths are, but real playing numbers has shown me that a 15/54/2 spec is FAR AHEAD of any other one specced into unholy. even RAWR (a tool that i dont usually give much credit) proofs my point, putting my build 600 dps ahead of the frost/unholy one (7100 against 6500) on the same equal gear
on a "standard" raid buffed simulation for a "standard" 3m lenght fight.
always standing at 60% or higher crit rate on obliterate hit and hitting for 8.5k+4.5k for average does make the difference, 6000+ dps on any 25man fight with 2x aledra`s battlestar (i219) and average EoC gear does proff my point :P
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