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Lady Proudmoore - Delusional or intuitive?
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Post by
hymer
steems not from people who are overly intrested in the lore, but those what play warcraft for the 'war' aspect of the game. So to have characters like Jaina and Thrall, who are brilliant, it conflicts with these players want for having an excuse to kill the other side.
I don't entirely agree. After all, if Jaina and Thrall got their way, a profound element of drama would be lost. It's entirely plausible to like lore, and yet not want Jaina and Thrall to get the two factions together.
That said, there are also other reasons one can dislike Jaina and Thrall. Goody-two-shoes are actually kinda boring to some people, me included. I like them as people, but as plot elements they don't contribute much.
Also, they have been around for quite a while. If we want to keep seeing new lore material about them, Blizz has to put them in new situations. I'd like to see Jaina/Thrall lose her/his temper, make a mistake and be unwilling to admit that she/he made one. I'd like to see them misinterpret something and get the wrong idea, and then have it stick with them. Those would be opportunities for drama, and would add some humanity to them.
Oh, and I'd like to have Blizz tone them down a whole lot, too. What's the point in me running around to save the world, when Jaina conceivably can teleport entire armies around at will? Imagine the strategic and tactical implications. Why am I up to my gauntlets in undead, when Jaina could just teleport an army here? Why build castles and walls, when Jaina can just teleport armies through them? Why mass armies in Northrend, when Jaina can just teleport them directly from staging grounds less hostile?
Nah, give me Varian and Garrosh. Then I can feel morally superior, and maybe they'll occupy each other so I get to be the hero for once. No, wait, Malfurion is coming back...
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arkham
However, it seems the concept of having a leader whos smart, wise and actully gives a dam about there people, players would sooner have a leader whos, to put it bluntly, a complete jackass who wants to go to war for any reason he can find.
This steems not from people who are overly intrested in the lore, but those what play warcraft for the 'war' aspect of the game.So according to you, the players who want war aren't interested in the lore?
That's funny, because war--specifically war between the Horde and Alliance--is and has always been the central theme of the lore in the Warcraft series. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
Post by
138638
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Post by
Adamsm
He went a peace treaty and was kidnapped he tried again didn't go well.That was the Horde's fault and he knows it, he knows that Onyxia and then the Old God screwed up the peace treaty's.
Post by
Skreeran
ya considering how she killed his dad and 99% of all orcs are Horde based hmm I wonder why?At least 100% of statistics are made up with no evidence. Don't forget the Dark Horde, Fel Horde, Twilight's Hammer, Burning Blade, and then the random orcs you find in the other organizations.
And of course, it wasn't just her. There were lots of Alliance-race based attackers there as well...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/cyberman8/WC17p22.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/cyberman8/WC17p23.jpg
this coming from the leader and sole-member of the anti-Varian fan club
for any excuse he can find? Stormwind was burnt to ashes they threatend to destroy all life on azeroth. He went a peace treaty and was kidnapped he tried again didn't go well. Lets not forget Angathar no more than a couple months old and how that went?Alright, let me break this down into pieces...
1st meeting: He's kidnapped by
Defias
, after being betrayed by a member of his own court. Not Horde's fault. He was picked up as a slave, but not officially by Horde. The slave rings are not supported by the Horde, and you can not really blame the horde for their existance. It's like blaming the government of New York for dog-fighting rings in New York.
if thats not enough 1 word: Garrosh
Varian is not a Jackass that would be Garrosh he is a kind caring leader who cares about his people so he's not kind when an army of 40 Horde stop by to say hi It seems logical that he rightfully should declare war. and yet he has not offically declared war with the Horde. This is his biggest mistake so far. Also he was a peacekeeper amd mediator in his 3v3 team between hsi other 2 teammatesYes, Garrosh is a punk. I don't think I see very many people claiming Garrosh is right.
Varian
did
declare war in the Undercity. He said that he was going to wipe out the Horde, and tried to kill our Warchief. That is a statement of war.
Now, Varian isn't exactly a genocidal maniac either. He honestly does love his people. He's just not afraid to wipe out another race to accomodate him. The way I see it, he's your Orgrim. I've been reading Tides of Darkness, of course, and here's what I felt best captured Orgrim's mentality:
The sooner they crushed the opposition, the sooner his people could set aside their weapons and turn to building homes and families once more.
Orgrim loved his people. He wanted what was best for them, even if that meant the humans had to be extinguished. That's what Varian thinks about the orcs, I think. He believes they are mutually exclusive, and if only one race can survive, he wants it to be his.
Jaina and thrall are both Brilliant I'll give you that but if they don't either make all the Alliance Leaders sign a treaty with the horde
or
b) stop their truce
they would be very foolishWell, Jaina and Theramore are pretty much forced to treat with Orgrimmar, because war simply isn't an option. Durotar could wipe out Theramore with a bat of its eye, so they have to do their best to work with them.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I overemphasized to make a point most orcs are Horde based probably more than 80%Well, at least 80% of humans are from Stormwind. Clearly Stormwind is behind the Ashbringer's assassination. Or Lo'gosh's attempted assassination that was barely stopped by Valeera...
Oh wait, that one
was
Stormwind.
not the point the point is when he tries to make peace with the Horde something bad happens
1st peace attempt: kidnapped
2nd: attacked
angathar: bolvar died
I dont care if chris metzen walked in and killed bolvar or w/e the point is every time he tries something bad happensSo? What does that have to do with anything? I don't see the logic in saying "Well, circumstances prevent me from treating with them, so I guess war is in order..."
I'd say thats just some "agressive diplomacy" also he is not without provocation the alliance armies at wrath gate were ahnialted. now you'll say horde didn't do it it was the apocrathey.....
Give me links or some sort of proof that Varian knew this BY THE TIME he declared war on UC.Well, I have the standard counterpoint that Horde lost just as many there, but I'm sure you've already heard that.
So... Let me say this. Varian knew that the Horde was fighting the defenders of the Undercity.
The party reaches the canals and the corpse of Khanok the Impassable.
Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: What's happened here? There are corpses everywhere... the stench... overwhelming...
King Varian Wrynn says: Horde. By the looks of the struggle, they are here in force - somewhere.
--Wowwiki
Varians a kind sensible leader if Jaina asked for help against the Horde I'm sure King Magni would help if Varian asked (comic links would be useful now) and if the dwarves go chances are so will the gnomes. and so on.Well, there's two things there.
1. By the time the Stormwind Humans got there, Theramore would be leveled to the ground. They certainly didn't help Daelin.
2. Why go to war when diplomacy has worked so well in the past? Theramore has no reason to go to war, especially when the consequences of said war could mean the deaths of them all.
Post by
138638
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Post by
Adamsm
Patty is going to kick all your arses tomorrow for turning his thread into yet another Varian "Yea" or "Nah" thread.
Post by
Skreeran
As I've already said Varian can't insta-freeze time and acess the situation for hours,minutes or even multiple seconds he is in the middle of combat.But considering they're attacking Horde too, it's a reasonable assumption that they aren't allied with the Horde.
so logical and statistics say it doesn't make sense to try again he's given the Horde many chances and when jsut tell me 1 time when peace with the Horde went wellOkay, how about Hyjal? Ahn'Qiraj? The Dark Portal? How about the Sunwell? Just because the previous meetings were disrupted by outside factors (except in the case of the Violet Citadel), does not mean that he should give up on diplomacy.
lets see a different side of the conversation shall we?
King Varian Wrynn says: What say you now, Putress?
King Varian Wrynn says: Look around you, brothers and sisters. Open your eyes! Look at what they have done to our kingdom!
King Varian Wrynn says: How much longer will we allow these savages free reign in our world?
King Varian Wrynn says: I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities. Inside their minds...
King Varian Wrynn says: I know what evil lies in the hearts of orcs
what they have done to our kingdom: they being the Horde
savageses being the Horde(next line)
seen in their cities their minds I know what evil is in the hearts of the orcs...
that looks like he didn't know it was a dictinct group to me
"They" meaning he lumps all the Horde together. He knew that it was a rogue group (they did attack the Horde, after all), but he didn't care. It was all Horde to him.
my absence cost us the lives of our greatest heroes trash like you and the evil witch...
he obviously thinks Thrall and Sylvanas cost the lives of some of the greatest heros especially considering how putress was an undead what would his obvious assumption be?
disban your treacherous kingdom of murders....
your is the entire Horde
Thrall for every time ... YOUR arenas
who does he think atleast knew of the arenas.....In his mind, it's the Horde's fault for letting it happen, (which I will admit, it is, at least patially. The Forsaken should have been kept on a tighter lease, especially with Varimathras), but he doesn't think it was Thrall that ordered the attack.
I'm sure Thrall knew of the arenas, but there's two factors that prevented Thrall from dealing with them.
1.
They would be incredibly hard to eliminate.
You see this in real life with sport fighting rings, drugs, prostitution, etc. Just because it's illegal doesn't make it stop. I'm sure the Horde (the higher-ups, that is) do what they can to prevent them when it can be done.
2.
They really aren't that important right now.
When you're having to deal with the Burning Legion, the Lich King, Old Gods, Alliance/Horde relations, economy, and all these other factors, stomping out these gladiator rings just doesn't take top priority.
thats why you get the Alliance armies FIRST and have Jaina tell Varian.
theres a book cycle of hatred it did not take too much to make war Also if memory serves in cata Allies take Camp turajo thus making Theramore a good spot to send in reinforcements and help in the war efforts and come cataclysm she has to either pick a side Horde or Alliance due to this fact.So you're saying that Jaina should gather Alliance armies in Theramore, prepare to attack, and
then
declare war? That's just not like her at all. I could see Varian "comandeering" Theramore (as he did in my series), but not Jaina betraying Thrall. He's a helluva lot closer (relationship-wise, not just location-wise) to her than Varian ever was. If she's forced to pick sides, instead of remaining nuetral (let's say she didn't have the support of Kul Tiras or Dalaran), I'd guess she'd pick Horde. Why? Tactically, it's a lot better to live right next door to a giant ally than a giant enemy. And emotionally, she's a lot closer to Thrall than Varian.
And I do intend to read Cycle of Hatred. I haven't read it yet, but I know the basic plot, and from what I understand.
1. It never actually broke into full-on war.
2. They signed a more official treaty following the events of the book. There's no way either party would go back on that now... (Unless Garrosh becomes Warchief, in which case I'm rerolling Draenei).
Post by
109094
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Post by
Patty
Patty is going to kick all your arses tomorrow for turning his thread into yet another Varian "Yea" or "Nah" thread.
You bet'cha.
I was in a good mood. This has made me on my hormonal Man-Period.
THIS IS NOT A VARIAN THREAD!
Vgkthealliancefanboy, Did you bother reading the title?
This is primarily about Jaina
.
Not Varian. You used Jaina for one sentence, and everything since then has been "
<3 i has love for varian the aryan, he looks so sexy with a scar"
.
Keep it on topic,
Please
!
Thank you Parrazell for getting it back on topic to some extent.
Post by
166613
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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Bruce's points are all correct. But I must say that Jaina didn't go to war against Daelin.
She just remained neutral when he took over the Island.
That's important, she just knew when it wasn't her war to fight.
Post by
taurenmoo812
But back on track. Jania. Delusional imo. I dont think anyone, Horde or Alliance, would disagree in saying that Thrall is the exception to the norm as far as orcs go. I think Jania is blinded by Thralls nobility to see what the horde is actually like, maybe she hopes Thrall is what they can potentially become. However, what they can potentially become is not what they are today. Nor does it appear where they are currently headed (thanks in no small part to Garrosh). I think that it is Thralls nobility that blinds Jania to the aggression of the Horde and thats a dangerous thing
I think your trying to paint the horde more in a light you wish to see them, being more like the old horde lead by blackhand then doomhammer. The horde, in terms of the orcs, were redeemed under Thralls rule for a reason. Could you imagine orcs under the old hordes banner being able to live normal lives, like those you see in the barrens or durotar, setting up farm and raising a family?
And Jaina, well obviously sees Thrall for his noble quailities, isn't so blinded by them to not see dark elements within the horde, anymore then she would be nieve not to see dark elements within the alliance.
Post by
Skreeran
And Jaina, well obviously sees Thrall for his noble quailities, isn't so blinded by them to not see dark elements within the horde, anymore then she would be nieve not to see dark elements within the alliance.It's important to note here that Jaina's brother was killed by the Old Horde. I don't think she's being naïve.
Post by
229054
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Post by
138638
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