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Lady Proudmoore - Delusional or intuitive?
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Post by
184848
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Post by
HiVolt
You know, I just thought about the kid that Jaina and Thrall would have if there really is a romance there... The sue-ness of the offspring just blew my mind.
Post by
229054
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Post by
138638
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Post by
Achloryn
I think Jaina has the right idea - as lore stands NOW in the world. Jaina is far more trusting of Thrall, and he has responded well to her. Thrall trusts her, and she trusts him. Thrall does not, however, trust Varian anymore than Varian trusts Thrall. The Horde, under Thrall, could become... maybe not peaceful, but certainly tolerant of the alliance if Varian were open to that idea. If the horde does indeed come under Garrosh's influence, then this peace could never happen.
So, IMHO, in the world as it is "today", no, Jaina is not delusional. I do not think that her mediations will be able to continue if Thrall is deposed.
Post by
Patty
I think she's is going a tad over the edge especially when it came to not personally helping her father. If she had helped her father, Theramore would likely have been crushed. That's all her people dead. 1 death to save thousands more?
I understand her reasons but honestly if orcs kill you brother and then are going to kill your father and you know it stepping aside makes some sense udner the circimstances but telling the orcs hey theres a dock over there you can use to kill my dad and his navy! is just going too farSo if a black man shot my brother, and then my father went for revenge against black people and started killing, or wanting to kill, every black man, woman or child he saw, and I decided to leave him to get killed because what he was doing was fundamentally wrong, would I be going too far? Because if you think 'yes', you need some counselling or something.
Also most of the people of theramore don't want to deal with the horde and she should listen to her people when 95-100% (estimate) do not want what she does.Source? I doubt the Theramore humans want to be crushed by the Horde, which is what would happen if Theramore went to war.
Also if thats not enough when the
King of the Alliance
is face to face with one of the main enemies of the Alliance you don't just go: No Thrall I'll save you! and teleports Varian. I mean comeone?Because Stormwind Humans are the only people in the Alliance, right? kek.
No Arthas my love nooooooo! and teleport everyone out of tehre saving Arthas? She needs to rethink her priorities she is the subordinate of Varian and if he is going to kill Thrall she has no right to interfere unless helping the Alliance if she wants to sit out it's ok.I think she's resigned to her fate about Arthas. She knows in her head that he can't be saved, but wishes in her heart that he can, in my eyes.
now before I get flamed by the leaders of the anti-Varian fan club I will refer you to my first sentanceNot so much 'flamed' as corrected. Varian is not the leader of the Alliance, like Thrall is of the Horde.
To Ivokk, I don't mean like a fact as a guarantee, but in your opinion, could she have done more? I know what's done is done, but speculative questions are quite good for discussion sometimes.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Patty
Hmm, so what would you think that Jaina thinks about Varian?
I'd think it would be like
This
but just take the word "gay" and replace it with "green".
Post by
R1TeR
Well, I forgot the link but there was a ridiculous Jaina/Kael'thas Video I saw somewhere.... >_>
was it this?
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=81413
Post by
Rankkor
I'd say she's passionate and driven.
this is where i think blizzard just royaly SCREWED UP (yhea sorry for the potty words) the lore with tyrande here.
there are many many leaders in this world, however only 4 of them stood at the top of hyjal, only 4 listened to the wise words of the last guardian of the world, only 4 realized that either the world fights togheter for their survival, or they die togheter as hated enemys.
those leaders are Jaina, Thrall, Malfurion, and Tyrande.
that's the reason for wich back when they announced world of warcraft I was all like "O_O WTF?" when they said that the night elves would be hostile to the horde.
from lore it makes no sence, one would think that tyrande, jaina, malfurion and thrall would all become close friends after the greatest battle ever fought in history.
the rest of the leaders of the world can't honestly understand or comprehend the passion burned wihtin those who witnessed hyjal, for they weren't there.
that's why horde-side some question thrall's lack of desire to fight the humans, and why some on the alliance side question jaina as a posible orc-lover.
what still doesn't make sence is tyrande's hostility to the orcs, (for malfurion we can't speak for him he's been absent this whole time, and already it was confirmed that on cataclysm he's gonna be neutral for both factions as his priority is the world, not faction A or faction B.
to me Jaina is neither intuitive, or delusional more as she's driven, tottaly driven to achieve what was done in hyjal, but globaly, all races, side-by-side against their common enemy (and lord knows that all the races of azeroth have many enemys in common, from the scourge, the legion, the old gods, and the black dragonflight to name a few)
Post by
Arkham
Ithat's the reason for wich back when they announced world of warcraft I was all like "O_O WTF?" when they said that the night elves would be hostile to the horde.Warsong lumber operations in Ashenvale.
Post by
Adamsm
Ithat's the reason for wich back when they announced world of warcraft I was all like "O_O WTF?" when they said that the night elves would be hostile to the horde.Warsong lumber operations in Ashenvale.I think he means the fact that it is still going on, even though the Orc's now know that the land is the Night Elves.
Post by
Rankkor
exactly.
on lore, bck on warcraft III the horde started deforesting ashenvale, and even killed the corporeal form of cenarius (as a demigod he's not really dead, only his physical shell is broken)
and that's the reason of the hostily, but after their meeting with medivh, form a lore point of view, I'd say that the orcs would retire from ashenvale, out of respect of their new allies, after all warcraft III ended on a good note, with humans and orcs finnaly puttin aside their diferences to fight for a common cause.
this beutifull conclusion to a bloody horrible war was tottaly ruined by wow.
they needed 2 factions and so out of pure gameplay elements they made the horde and alliance hostile to one another once more :S
as much as I love wow, to me they are butchering the lore of this saga (that to me started with warcraft I and the other 4 games)
tyrande's personality has been so modified I can no longer recognize her from the tyrande I saw on Warcraft III and war of the ancients.
this is the type of reasons I sometimes wish that blizzard puts an end to world of warcraft and continues the lore on Warcraft IV (I swear on that day I'll dance on 1 foot for 3 hours)
it would be a shame to loose such a great game, but it would be worht if that saves the lore, wich is the main reason I play wow (due to the huge ammount of jerks on the internet, I don't like MMO's that much)
Post by
Arkham
after all warcraft III ended on a good noteReign of Chaos ended on a good note. The Frozen Throne, which came afterward, most certainly did not.
Post by
46491
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Rankkor
Wait, they were already planning WoW by the time of Warcraft 2?
nah, that was just wishfull thinking on my behalf back when wow was still on development.
remember I'm above all things a fan of lore, and it's generally known that in MMO's jerks abound, by the thousands, for that reason, I wanted the story arcs to continue the way they started, in a strategy game =/
sadly not all wishes come true, heck at least now I got my wish of Starcraft II, wich is something I've wanted for quite some time
Post by
Arkham
Wait, they were already planning WoW by the time of Warcraft 2?I think Thanodius is overestimating a little. There's no indication that Lord of the Clans (the game) was meant to pave the way for WoW, or that they'd planned it out anywhere near then. And some of the books (particularly the novelized Lord of the Clans) were actually meant to bridge the gap between Warcraft 2 and 3, and aren't directly related to WoW.
But, he is right that Warcraft 3, and especially it's expansion, was built to pave the way for WoW.
Post by
Rankkor
well I had posted this on a similar topic, but due to unforeseen events this rather intresting discussion will continue here.
here is my main reason of why to me jaina is not delusional but rather driven and passionate. and why she has the potencial of being a great leader (even her lineage is that of the original founders of the first alliance)
the main reason I don't think varian is a good leader is this.
Skeeran already touched the first issue, his dismissal of almost all the races of the horde as animals (dehumanizing the enemy to make it seem less wrong to slaughter them)
but an even worst issue is that he's easy to manipulate.
my best example is what happened at the theramoore peace meeting, varian and thrall agreed to meet to negociate a truce for both factions.
then the old gods decided to stirr things up, sent an assassin to kill varian, the assassin was garona herself, she failed (and miserably too) but her secondary mission was completed nonetheless.
varian just saw she was an orc, and automatically assumed she was horde, and worst, he didn't assumed she was a former horde agent gone rogue, nope, he assumed she was sent by the horde to kill him.
his only evidence? her skin was green.
-.- duh this guy is way to easy to manipulate.
if I was a villian who wanted to take over the world, the first obstacle in my way would be the alliance and the horde, if both of them atack me separatedly, or worst if both of them join forces to fight me, then my victory will be harder, or I would simply be defeated.
the smartest move would be to put my enemys at each other's troaths, and while doing that to varian is exeedingly simple, doing this to thrall or jaina, or even ronin would be next to imposible.
all I'd have to do was have a small army of humans and orcs at my command, have the humans smuggle the orcs in crates into a populated village like goldshire, put horde tabards on the orcs, and then have the orcs kill as many plp as posible before they are slain.
now a common leader would investigate, would ponder in wisdom, but varian would automatically say "this is an act of war".
wereas jaina would first open an investigation, and after making sure who are the real culprits she would take action, (u know, the whole "think before you act" stuff that leaders are suposed to have)
if i try the same tactic at razor hill, or bree............ the horde wouldn't be so hasty to draw conclusions since both thrall and sylvannas are among the most cunning figures on azeroth.
now let's review what villians have both orcs and humans working for them:
Arthas: has the cult of the dammed, which has both humans and orcs on them as we've seen in icecrown.
Malygos: has spellcasters of human gnomish trollish forsaken elven and even orcish race. (yhea we're not in cataclysm yet and already there are some orc mages on dragonblight :P I should had taken those as a sign)
Deathwing: has the wyrmcult, wich includes humans, orcs and..... o_O WTF? dranei? yhea draenei too.
Old gods: have the twillight hammer cult, wich includes members of all the races including orcs and humans,
Burning legion:; has the shadow council, composed mostly of orcs, and also several human worshipers, heck even gnomes, draenei (maybe I should call them eredar out of respect) and blood elves (out of spite I'll jsut call these fel elves)
my point is: all the bad guys have several races including humans and orcs working for them, and for all of them it would be exeedingly simple to put varian against the horde because he's easy to manipulate.
Velen, Tyrande, and Malfurion may not be humans, but they certainly aren't easy to manipulate like that.
and as for human leadership, Jaina is definitly not easy to manipulate. many argue she would believe anything thrall says, this is not true, jaina is a diplomat, she ponders on what thrall says, and neither automatically dismisses it as a lie, nor automatically swallows it as truth.
jaina does what she does best, investigate, nor for nothing she's one of the most brilliant minds on azeroth (xD just being next to her surrounds you with an "aura of brilliance" that's enough to prove my point on her intelligence)
Humans have been under the rule of leaders easy to manipulate long enough, I think is time a leader who's actually smarter and more cunning steps in. I'm sure they certainly dont' want another force manipulating their leader
Post by
taurenmoo812
and as for human leadership, Jaina is definitly not easy to manipulate. many argue she would believe anything thrall says, this is not true, jaina is a diplomat, she ponders on what thrall says, and neither automatically dismisses it as a lie, nor automatically swallows it as truth.
jaina does what she does best, investigate, nor for nothing she's one of the most brilliant minds on azeroth (xD just being next to her surrounds you with an "aura of brilliance" that's enough to prove my point on her intelligence)
Humans have been under the rule of leaders easy to manipulate long enough, I think is time a leader who's actually smarter and more cunning steps in. I'm sure they certainly dont' want another force manipulating their leader
I certainly agree with you Rankkorr, Jaina does strike me as a leader who isn't easily manipulated like Varian, Blackhand, Kael'thas to say the least.
However, it seems the concept of having a leader whos smart, wise and actully gives a dam about there people, players would sooner have a leader whos, to put it bluntly, a complete jackass who wants to go to war for any reason he can find.
This steems not from people who are overly intrested in the lore, but those what play warcraft for the 'war' aspect of the game. So to have characters like Jaina and Thrall, who are brilliant, it conflicts with these players want for having an excuse to kill the other side.
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