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Can You Still Raid as a BM?
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Post by
84055
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Vriaeliss
I hoped to actually play a bit tonight, rather than defend Beast Masters everywhere, so I'm sure you'll all be glad to hear I'm about done with this thread. :-)
hehe, yeah, is why I stopped posting mostly, actually out playing the game ^_^
Post by
139482
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Post by
catlady
Well, lets take a look at actual percentages.
Import my armory into femaledwarf.com. My name is Saffavia.
For the sake of argument, enable best raid buffs/debuffs
Change the glyph of viper to hawk (cause technically you get the best numbers--a difference of 7--with this gylph)
Click "use aspect of the beast in bestial wrath"
and the numbers are 6589
Ok.
Change to my secondary spec.
Change all my gems to agility, my enchants as well--remember to use the blue gems where I have blue gems, and the epic gems where I have epic gems.
Change glyphs, rotation, pet to wolf. . .
and the numbers are 6881.
Thats not 20%. Is it better. Yes. Is it 20% better, no.
Now, using that same SV spec, change sniper training to 50%. Yes on a patch fight, it should be 100%, but not every fight is like patch--so lets get closer to average numbers.
and the numbers are 6770. Les than 10%.
____________________________________________________________________________
In politics, in statistics, in marketing, 10% is the grey area where "no clear winner" can be announced. Personal opinion, miscalculation, situational advantages, all contribute highly at this point.
Situational advantages for SV would be fights like Heigan, Lothab, Thaddius. Situational advantages for BM would be fights like Yog. Situational advantages for MM with armor pen would be any high-armor target fight. This is why MM out-performs in Uludar.
____________________________________________________________________________
What is my point?
Many SV hunters are still in the "just hit 3.08" mindset, when BM got "overnerfed" and SV got "overbuffed". When 3.08 hit, SV was doing more damage than BM had before 3.08.
But BM has gotten buffed several times since then, and SV has gotten nerfed. Some of those nerfs were "stealth nerfs" and SV hunters arent even aware of them.
But playing BM isnt "gimping your dps" unless you are in a lot of Uludar gear with armor pen, because armor pen doesnt scale to pets. And hell, SV hunters are very quick to say "BM is a gimp" but, technically, SV is a gimp, because it doesnt perform as well as MM--nor give as good a raid buff.
Now, because of those gear disadvantages, BM wasnt able to PROGRESS, but now, thanks to the gear that drops in ToC 10/25, which largely lacks armor pen, BM can progress as well.
Are there going to be times when--but gear disadvantages--BM drops significantly below another spec--sure. But part of knowing your class is knowing what gear to pick and when--and when you HAVE to change spec. If my guild ever progresses in Uldar, I might HAVE to change. But as long as all I am doing is helping new 80s through 10/25 man Naxx, well, I am safe where I am.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Edit:
I personally am not using the Top BM spec. By moving the 3 points in imp arcane into 1 more point in invigoration, and 2 points in imp tracking, I can up the "theoretcial" numbers to 6627.
6627 to 6770. . .how big a difference is that?
Post by
RadioBandit
Wheres the melee hunters already?
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=109940
Post by
139482
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
catlady
In politics, in statistics, in marketing, 10% is the grey area where "no clear winner" can be announced. Personal opinion, miscalculation, situational advantages, all contribute highly at this point.
In statistics, it's 5% actually(or less depending on what you're comparing). Look up "statistically significant."
Well in marketing it is 10%. But anyway--this IS a < 5% difference.
And hell, SV hunters are very quick to say "BM is a gimp" but, technically, SV is a gimp, because it doesnt perform as well as MM--nor give as good a raid buff.
Replenishment isn't a good raid buff? On the contrary, I'd say replenishment is the
best
raid buff. Maybe not the best for hunter dps, but try doing a boss without replenishment, see how long your healers go without crying oom. With healers having 30k+ mana pools, that's at least 300 mana/5.
Replenishment IS a good raid buff. It is NOT as good a raid buff as Trueshot Aura. Why? It doesnt stack with a retadin's replenishment. Do you frequently run 25s without a ret pally--great! Then SV's buff is ESSENTIAL! But lets be honest, how often do you run without a retadin--and, if you do, then a BM's buff is better than an SV buff.
__________________________________________________________________________
Killer--you are being DELIBERATELY obtuse here. At a less than 5% difference--6627 to 6770--there is extreamly limited advantage to playing SV over BM.
You wouldnt accept my "practical" play experience--and demanded I use the spreadsheet--fine.
I did.
You still wont accept it? Then there are only 2 explinations:
1) BM hatred
2) Super Elitie player who demands the very best.
I submit that you have BM hatred--not super elitism. Why?
If you say that a potential dps loss of 150 is a "gimp" , then you need to be prooving that you are loosing LESS than 150. You are not. IF you really demand the very very best--and all that matters are numbers--then you need to change your proffessions. You would gain 150dps by switching enchant to blacksmithing.
Moreover, you arent even hit-capped! Maybe you will say there is always a Draenei in your group. . . I dont know if that is something you can always depend on. Do you ever do VoA? Which generally needs to be a pug? Do you do 5 man ToC, or a 10 man Uludar--and do you always find one of our horned friends to run it with?
I dont know how your raid--and I am not rude enough to call you a liar, so if you say there is NEVER a situation where you dont have the 1% hit buff in your group, and in your range, then I will accept it.
But you should still take up BS/JC--if your claim is that numbers are the most importand thing, and a dps difference of 150 is critical. . .
Edit:
But really, not being hitcapped--if you were giving advice to anyone on this forumn--you would rip them a new one for that! So, unless you claim to always run with a Draenei--which I am skeptical of, but will accept--you really cant be giving anyone advice, now can you?
Post by
139482
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Post by
244869
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Post by
170457
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Post by
catlady
KR
I appologize for the annoyance--and for where I was incorrect in numbers. I did not know--as you say--that 5 mans require a lower hit. I knew 5 man heroics required a lower hit, but I was under the impression that ToC was different.
I didn't know how many sorces of replenshment were required--though I did know it was more than one, beacuse of procs. Maybe I never looked into it because there are so many Paladins in my guild, and 2 shadow priests. (The later being sort of required for the Military--but occassionally one does go holy, if another priest or druid cant make it)
As for your hit--I did give you the option to tell me you had a Draenei in your group---so dont get too angry.
But you are still missing my point, i think. But I give up. The numbers are there, for those who want to see, that in some situations, BM and SV are very very very close in numbers. Close enough that for someone who perfers/is better with BM they will get better results with BM than with SV.
I still do not see, that, where 2 comparably geared hunters, one SV one BM, if the BM gives out more damage, he is not a more valuable asset to his guild than the SV, and where if the SV could do better as BM, why it wouldn't be better for him to switch--and practice his SV skills on dummies or something, so that eventually he would be better in that spec.
Edit: I appologize again for being rude, and for where I was incorrect.
Edit again: I am not sure why it is always BM hunters who get this sort of anger though--you dont pounce on an SV hunter and tell him to go MM over 150 dps. Is that because of replenishment alone?
Post by
170457
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Post by
catlady
Yup true that.
Things I've learned:
1.)5mans require less hit. Do 5man heroics? I'd assume.
2.)The gap between BM and SV, while significant, is not as big as I expected. I concede to this. Will I respec BM now? Hell no. Will I still give BM hunters the "look" (at their talents)? Yup. Will I automatically dismiss them as scrubs? Nah. But I better see a Devilsaur and AP gems.
Thank you :) I really do mean that
And I really do appologize for before. I am extra cranky from being up most of the night.
But where you guys are playing--in Uludar gear, and ToC25 man gear, BM scales very poorly--so if I were in your place, I would be wary of a BM hunter as well. What I was trying to point out is that the distance is close--only in certain gear levels. 25Naxx and below--and, I think, ToC10 might be BM-friendly as well.
Post by
355869
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355869
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Post by
139482
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Post by
269245
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Post by
catlady
I still do not see, that, where 2 comparably geared hunters, one SV one BM, if the BM gives out more damage, he is not a more valuable asset to his guild than the SV, and where if the SV could do better as BM, why it wouldn't be better for him to switch--and practice his SV skills on dummies or something, so that eventually he would be better in that spec.
I also agree with this. However, I also believe said hunter should invest in dual spec and practice the higher DPS spec when DPS isn't as important(dummies, 5-mans, pugs, etc.). In the meantime, they would still be doing their normal damage, but in the future, they would do more when they changed to the spec they had been practicing.
I totally agree with this! This is what I have been doing, and every Heigan fight my numbers get a little better with my SV spec.
Edit again: I am not sure why it is always BM hunters who get this sort of anger though--you dont pounce on an SV hunter and tell him to go MM over 150 dps. Is that because of replenishment alone?
In my case, it's not selective. I will always recommend the highest DPS spec, unless there is a specific reason they need a certain spec(e.g. must have replenishment for the raid). Whether that spec be MM, SV, or BM, doesn't matter to me. 41/20, 50/21, 2/18/51, 6/14/51, 0/15/56, 7/57/7... I've recommended them all.
Fair enough, as I said my temper got away with me. There was a question about my integrity and lying early on, and it made me very defensive and I was lashing out.
2.)The gap between BM and SV, while significant, is not as big as I expected.
3.2 giving pets expertise had a big impact on that. Now, if only ArP scaled to the pet. Then BM might be able to keep up with MM at the later gear levels.
But where you guys are playing--in Uludar gear, and ToC25 man gear, BM scales very poorly--so if I were in your place, I would be wary of a BM hunter as well. What I was trying to point out is that the distance is close--only in certain gear levels. 25Naxx and below--and, I think, ToC10 might be BM-friendly as well.
That's something I'm not used to. I usually do most of my numbers for fairly well geared players. Players who are in mostly T8.5 gear and some hardmode loot. Could the expertise change in 3.2 made BM superior to SV at much lower gear levels? Maybe. I didn't think it would have had enough of a an effect to make it better, but then again, I really didn't think that someone at that gear level would care an extreme amount about maximizing DPS.
No, in no gear that I have checked does it come out superior. It can come out very close, which is what I was trying to say. And I do think it might be superior to MM at low gear levels, I am not sure.
Even at "low" gear levels--which I am defining as 25 man naxx and below, maximizing BM dps is tricky. You must have 2 pieces of T7 or 7.5, as the 5% pet damage is key.
For example. I am currently saving for the 8.5 chest. When I get the emblems it will be a DOWNGRADE! Because I loose the 2 piece set bonus. Fortunately, I have 95 emblems of valor gathering dust, so when I get the 8.5 chest, I will also buy the 7.5 pants. The 7.5 pants are technically not as good as my Leggings of Collosal strides, but, when coupled with the increase in dps from the chest, the overall effect will be an upgrade.
A BM hunter who tries to run without being very very careful as to gear will see his/her numbers plummet, as will one who doesnt use devilasaur.
On a totally unrelated note, the "pet requirements" are the biggest disapointment I have with Wrath. Some pet damage discrepencies I can see, but 200+ dps for a BM without a devilasuar or a MM/SV without a wolf. . .That depresses me. If I didnt want pet versatility, I could roll a lock.
Post by
Meldiren
KR
I appologize for the annoyance--and for where I was incorrect in numbers. I did not know--as you say--that 5 mans require a lower hit. I knew 5 man heroics required a lower hit, but I was under the impression that ToC was different.
I didn't know how many sorces of replenshment were required--though I did know it was more than one, beacuse of procs. Maybe I never looked into it because there are so many Paladins in my guild, and 2 shadow priests. (The later being sort of required for the Military--but occassionally one does go holy, if another priest or druid cant make it)
As for your hit--I did give you the option to tell me you had a Draenei in your group---so dont get too angry.
But you are still missing my point, i think. But I give up. The numbers are there, for those who want to see, that in some situations, BM and SV are very very very close in numbers. Close enough that for someone who perfers/is better with BM they will get better results with BM than with SV.
I still do not see, that, where 2 comparably geared hunters, one SV one BM, if the BM gives out more damage, he is not a more valuable asset to his guild than the SV, and where if the SV could do better as BM, why it wouldn't be better for him to switch--and practice his SV skills on dummies or something, so that eventually he would be better in that spec.
Edit: I appologize again for being rude, and for where I was incorrect.
Edit again: I am not sure why it is always BM hunters who get this sort of anger though--you dont pounce on an SV hunter and tell him to go MM over 150 dps. Is that because of replenishment alone?
Not only do I out dps EQUIVALENTLY geared BM hunters, but I out DPS BM hunters who are FAR BETTER geared than I am. We have a BM hunter that is already in almost all conquest gear, carrying around a bow that does 50 DPS more than mine, yet I still manage to beat her by 1k in EVERY boss fight. Or more. she is finally convinced enough, that she is gong to switch.
And no, it is BM hatred. I LOVED BM until it got nerfed into the ground. i still have Nuramoc in my stable. But if you REALLY want to help your guild, by putting out the MOST DPS and DAMAGE you can, then the answer is clear. And it isn't BM.
Post by
170457
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