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LOL @ WoW in China! Must read!
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Post by
91278
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171168
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114144
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355744
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Post by
Skyfire
Mage Armor now has a new icon!
Well, ok, not Mage Armor this time...
Post by
Katalliaan
With the new censorship, I shudder to think what they would do to the death knight starter area. Also, if they do this to Warcraft, I wonder what would happen to games like Call of Duty and Unreal Tournament, if they even have versions of them there.
EDIT: Just thought of something.. why don't they just raise the rating if they're afraid little kids will get exposed to things that don't exist in the real world?
Post by
355744
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Post by
95537
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Post by
Arathian
IMHO any kind of censorship is bad.Any way you look at it.If china wanted to protect the youth/warn olders just put a big sign in the place of the ork at the cd saying:this game contains blood,gore,violence,blah,blah
PS:(i am not American,i am Greek)
Post by
Mesoforte
Mes I really don't understand the whole Wowhead=/=America thing. All I'm trying to say is there are people who have different moral viewpoints as others. And people treat them to various degrees of seriousness. How about something that is actually illegal, child pornography. These are not taboo in some countries believe it or not. Now this is taking it to the extreme but you get my point.
I don't get why Americans ALWAYS have to bring a social/ethical standpoint and give me some counterargument based on the political correctness inside the US. Its like the only thing you guys talk about in a debate. Abortion Censorship War on Terror Firearms trade Drug trade, classic examples of how everything ends up being a debate on politics.
I don't recall bringing a counterargument based upon political correctness in the US. What I recall is making a point about changing value systems and the reality of death. Read first, then respond.
However if you want a lesson in different cultural norms, I would recommend doing research on female circumcision and the countries that practice it. There are some cultural norms that are pointless and/or destructive. Just because they are believed by people does not give them immediate credibility.
There are. Not everywhere but there are. Not every single child is being raped but child pornography is still illegal. Again its taking it to the extreme but its true China is more strict on this kind of stuff.
You missed the point of what you quoted, good job. The point is that censorship will probably not fix this issue.
Until today US is still struggling to decide whether internet addiction is an official medical problem or not. The Chinese however is faced with a much more rapid increase of addicted population, and the addicts are often playing 5 days in a row in internet cafes, dropping college along the way. These ain't one in a million stories, these happen all over China.
The reason the US doesn't term internet addiction as an official medical problem is because the issue isn't that wide-spread. You have certain cases where people take it to the extreme, however that isn't the norm. And the cause of those problems cannot be directly linked to the internet or gaming itself. Which brings me back to the point of my earlier statement, if there is such a large group of people having problems separating reality and fiction, the problem is probably not a single game and censorship will not stop the root cause of the problem.
Oh and before I forget, this quote bears repeating-
I don't think voting will occur in China anytime soon... Its just one of those things you don't change. China is a one party system, just about everyone likes the CCP, something the US cannot achieve and probably never will. It makes things a lot easier in the country, and as you can see from the development in China, its outgrowing the world rapidly. If they can advance with such rapid speeds, they are probably doing something right.
Under Stalin, Russia increased its industrial production by 400%. Yep, he quadrupled Russia's industrial capacity. He also instituted multiple purges that outdid the Holocaust in body count.
But if they could advance with such rapid speed, Stalin must have been doing something right?
Just because it lets me remember my Russian History.
Post by
Pyramids
WALLS OF TEXTSES !@#$%ES (cuz I can't post again so's I gotta post all @ once) just jump to the bottom if you want the point but no food for the brains:
Day-um Mexloh, great read! Speaking from the U.S.'s perspective, it really showed me just how narrow-minded I actually am, because my first thought was "Ah, those tyrants oppressing their people once again," but after reading your posts it really made me consider just how much censorship happens even in America.
I understand that you aren't defending censorship, you just have open eyes, and I appreciate you opening mine a little bit more. I only hope that you'll at least glance at this wall o' text >.<
My only 2cp to add is that even though things ARE indeed considered taboo by social standards, they are still allowed to be produced, uncensored, and people may choose whether to buy them -- or be exposed to them -- or not. It is this difference that Americans take such great issue with, I believe.
Yes, something selling well or not does influence some changing of things, but it could full well be released as it was. Once such example is a movie called Birth of a Nation. This movie depicts whites as superior to black and blacks as subhuman monkeys, which at the time of production was okay but now is extremely bad, bad, bad. However, the film is still respected as one of the greatest films ever made, in terms of filmmaking. Admittedly the way the people were depicted helped sell it, but my point is that it is still respected despite its perspective, and it is taught of at schools.
Though I hate to use such a blatantly unscientific statement, by the way Americans as a whole are absolutely NOT racist against blacks. I have to mention something called affirmative action. "Affirmative action" means that certain groups, let's take universites for example, have to take a certain number of blacks into their roll. There is no such rule for whites. Many, including my black friends, say that in today's America we are actually FAVORITING blacks, because a white man firing a black man will get slapped with a racism charge faster than he can blink. This is a whole 'nother discussion, but I only mention it because it
1.) Highlights the taboo-ness of Birth of a Nation
and
2.) At least attempts to show that race is a complex and ongoing issue in America
and
3.) Segues into my next point (yes I have one!), that America's culture is not just what the rest of the world sees. . . .
But back to the point of choice of exposure: Americans, older ones especially, are concerned about the overexposure the media causes. This is usually exemplified when you see a racy TV commercial in between a children's TV show. It almost gives me the impression that, much like how you feel America is forcing its culture upon China, we Americans feel like we're forcing our culture -- that is, the culture that the world sees us having -- upon OURSELVES, for we desire a culture built upon morals, but what we are given is one guided by sex. This sex culture is what most other countries see us as having, just like how in my mind China is full of chicks playing erhus and ^&*! like that. I know that's not accurate, but there it is.
Conclusion, so if tl;dr come here
In reality, though I'm just a teenager, in my travels around the world I've seen people are very much the same: Each protect their children fiercely, teenagers get busy like rabbits and high as kites, and everyone wants money. Though I've never been to China, I'll bet that people are the same over there as here, because our countries are quite similar. The difference is that if I want to watch porn or look at skulls, both are rights that I enjoy, and that's what makes me love my country. (well, except the porn part if you're under 18 or 21 in some states, but the point still stands :) ).
Post by
WoogyDude
six pages of :words:
lol at this guy for white-nighting for onerous government
there is no way this guy is not a troll. only a troll could make posts as absurd as these:
Do you honestly believe this 'particular' censor cannot be deemed morally correct by anyone?
....
There are people who honestly believe what they are doing is right despite what you think
Just because someone, somewhere thinks something is moral, it does not make it so.
there are still plenty people alive who do not condone these sorts of images, real or pixelated. It just happens China has the power to censor these type of things
Just because a government could censor, does not mean it should. If the images in WoW were really that offensive to Chinese culture, Blizz would have been forced by the market to change it.
Since I'm at it, I honestly suggest you stop taking in information from ANY news from the media about N Korea. Reporters are not even allowed in there.
Oh man, you refute your own point here.
religion is forbidden in the country. As again this is how it works around here, and whatever you think cannot change it. My church does not allow Chinese passport holders. I don't think you can practice the Islamic culture without being subjected to racial profiling in the US either. Same concept.
Imprisoning people for practicing religion and some people being suspicious of Islam is not the "same concept".
The Japanese dont teach about the rape of Nanjing with accuracy, you dont see anyone going "wow what censorship!"
Who ever said revisionist history was a good thing. Just because other countries may practice censorship does not mean that it is right for China to do so.
I just got trolled, didn't I?
Post by
95537
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Mesoforte
Hey Mes! I would just like to say I agree with everything you say, even about how I was wrong on my history and I'll go slap my history books and my teacher for it. You win, I don't wanna fight. :)
"There are some cultural norms that are pointless and/or destructive. Just because they are believed by people does not give them immediate credibility."
"Just because someone, somewhere thinks something is moral, it does not make it so."
I'm just quoting these two for those who understand why I quote them.
Hmm, I don't recall every saying anything about the moral value of censorship, if that's what you were hoping to quote me for. I merely pointed out that utilizing censorship doesn't work. I think what I said earlier bears repeating-
Read
first
, then respond.
Secondly, if you don't wish to argue, do not attempt to "correct" other people.
I've pretty much learned that you cant really debate with determined people, since the more I try to bring up a point, moot or informative, only fortifies their viewpoint. Every word I spew just strengthen your will to oppose me.
The only reason I argue against you is because the point you wanted to make is in fact moot, and the fact that you never actually created an argument against my argument. If you would read and respond to what I wrote instead of just assuming what was written, it would of made the argument at least intelligible.
Just how many times in a lifetime can you manage to change someones views on politics through these debates anyways?
Against trolls, never. Against normal people, all the time.
Post by
Mesoforte
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6128654.html
- Here is a good article. ""All the children here have left school because they are playing games or are in chat rooms every day," clinic director Dr. Tao Ran told the AP. "They are suffering from depression, nervousness, fear, an unwillingness to interact with others, panic, and agitation. They also have sleep disorders, the shakes, and numbness in their hands." Weight loss was another reported symptom."
I just realized you probably made that quote give the wrong intent.-
"All the children here have left school because they are playing games or are in chat rooms every day," first gives the impression that the number of children is large, but there is no information as to the amount of people affected-
"Sporting two dozen nurses and doctors, the facility treats
an undisclosed number of patients
."
Its hard to see how large the problem could be if the number of people is undisclosed. With only 24 staff to cover all the patients, the size of the sample seems questionable.
According to the CYSSC, the proportion of people under the age of 18 playing online games has dropped 7 percent, to 15 percent of the total online gaming population in China.
Fewer kids playing online games apparently translates to less game addiction.
From the second article.
300 similar centers in China, for a 2.5 million addicted population -
2.5 million addicted does not match this article.
http://kotaku.com/5124618/a-look-inside-chinas-game-addiction-treatment-centers
If there is one thing about the Chinese people, its that they study and work efficiently in their spare times instead of having endless arguments about politics that never get anyone anywhere.
China has the world's largest number of Internet users – 290 million and counting, with 70 percent under the age of 30. And a recent survey of Internet use by global market information group TNS found that Chinese spend the highest proportion of their leisure time online – 44 percent – out of users in 16 countries.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0106/p01s03-woap.html?page=1
Okay, that last quote might have been trolling, but I couldn't resist.
Post by
Karang
Anyway, an interesting fact came to my mind. Only two nations made minority out of native people, US of A in America and China in Tibet. After readin this topic i also found that both China and USA are censoring media, can someone point out more similarities?
That's incorrect.
There are other instances where settlers have made minorities of the natives.
Example: Australia - white settlers & aborigines. New Zealand - white settlers & maori.
Post by
95537
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Post by
Mesoforte
Anyway, an interesting fact came to my mind. Only two nations made minority out of native people, US of A in America and China in Tibet. After readin this topic i also found that both China and USA are censoring media, can someone point out more similarities?
How do you make minorities? Do you mean killing of minority groups?
All this shouting and raging when there is an easy way to solve both "problems": forbid production and distribution of both games and tabaco.
1. Open Wikipedia
2. Look up prohibition
3. ?
4. Profit
Or just study the current problems that the war on drugs is in. Whatever floats your boat.
Post by
Mesoforte
I share your same values
No you probably don't. Granted you don't know much about me.
This isn't even a rebuttal. I just want to know why you would come up to me and start throwing insults at me
What insults? :o
a) Why do you think you have the right to judge another's cultural differences?
I didn't judge censorship as a moral action, reread.
b) Why do you think gaming addiction is a problem that is deeply rooted?
Deeply rooted in what? That sentence has no ending subject,
What I am NOT talking about is whether censorship is right or wrong.
Neither am I.
I am merely stating there are people who do believe this is right, and they have the right to support it and demanding change to these policies and deeming them immoral and something to be changed is just as much taking the freedom of thought as it is China taking away the freedom of speech.
My point wasn't that censorship was immoral. My point was that censorship doesn't work.
You are not seeing the big picture here,
PICTURE = MORALITY ISSUE AND LOOKING AT SOMETHIG FROM ANOTHER PERSON'S VIEWPOINT.
.
Picture=The person you're arguing against isn't arguing morality.
Don't be a hypocrite and read my very first post before you respond. I'll use your own words, "If you would read and respond to what I wrote instead of just assuming what was written, it would of made the argument at least intelligible." I never responded to your arguments because I never tried to argue against them. Except one post when I got agitated, of which I apologize in advance for.
So now please, if you don't come up with something that challenges my original post, dont drag this onnnnnnnnn :)
You cannot force a game where women are seen without veils into that of a Muslim country, and you I'll bet you cannot force a game where the Nazis rule into the Polish government either. Now I am taking the examples to the extreme, but the amount of censorship the Chinese government puts on the internet is, in my opinion, a questionable but fair trade. Most westerners (I am using this word to describe those in the US and Europe for simplicity by the way, dont quote me on it) believe in freedom of speech, and they confuse the censorship of this game with the censorship China has put up on WoW. You see, if you look at it from a broader point of view (imagine you are one of your parents/grandparents), the game IS extremely gorey and with the introduction of Naxxramas a work of "cartoon horror". I dont believe this game would have been accepted 40 years ago, the amount of gore, falling intestines and skulls is alarming.
The problem is that no one is "forcing" WoW on China. The mere presence of the game does not necessitate force. The second problem is that life itself is full of gore. If you don't believe me, I recommend running with first responders and EMTs for a few days. That or visiting a country embroiled in civil war. This game probably wouldn't be accepted 40 years ago, however there are certain words that people could say 40 years ago that now necessitate a press conference if said by the wrong person.
Now I personally dont find this to be a problem, but you guys have to realize the line between reality and gaming is speeding into a blur. A lot of addict gamers, especially in China, have psychological issues related to gaming, suicides and murder have occurred. As a sensible government, putting together a stricter policy against gore in game is just a way of saying "we believe this is creating a negative image towards our youth". You may agree or disagree with the statement, but the censorship is there for a perfectly moral reason. (You can even argue against morals, I mean come on violence is rated +13 and sex is rated +18. A paradox I find in the world promoting negativity and death instead of embracing life and the joys of it.)
Suicides, murder and psychological issues exist outside of games unfortunately. And those issues that arise that are involved with games are not the norm. You've had maybe 10-20 shootings that are somehow involved with GTA for example, out of the thousands that played the game. Most of the issues are with the people that are playing the games, not the games themselves.
So now look at the censorship again, and realize that perhaps, just perhaps, that it is the gaming industry that is fast developing into a commercialized version of promoting numbness upon violence. Most teenagers growing up with games have absolutely no problems watching death, experiencing death, pain and gore as long as it is kept in games/movies/songs. Imagine you're own face if* you see a mutilated man on the streets, the reactions would not be the same as you would see to the same action in a game/movie/song. Most teenagers are numb to negativity inside these forms of entertainment, BUT the blurring of reality for those who are heavily addicted to gaming, as a lot of Chinese gamers are, can potentially lead to serious problems.
Most kids who play games (exempting those who have psychological issues already) would vomit if they saw a real dead body. Most paramedics vomit the first time they see/smell a dead body of any kind, regardless of the media they were exposed to.
If anything, this game doesn't present near enough to a real picture of death to the people that play it. If the players are desensitized to anything, its a false version of it.
I already responded to your original post.
Post by
Honorus
Read:
http://www.massively.com/2008/10/11/chinese-gamer-sued-for-using-wow-add-on
(redicolous isn't it?) PS: This link has very little or nothing at all to do with my post below.
Don't get me wrong here, I DO understand the problems with WoW vs Chinese culture, BUT! Censoring a game (yes a videogame ^^) I cannot understand. If you dont want to play WoW/Counter-Strike because you believe the graphics may be harmful, dont play it. Just let those who do want to play play. And if there's problem with kids that may be so goddamn sensitive that their minds take damage of this, let the parents decide if this is okay for their kid to play.
I don't believe the number of wow addicts are any higher in China than in USA/Europe at all, just that there's a very high amount of players due to China's large population. The more players - The higher risc of having a few addicts.
Murders because of the game? Nah, don't think it would go like this really: 'Player1: Hey, player2! Can I burrow 1000g from u? Player2: Ye sure. *Trades 1k to p1* Just remember to have it for me by Tuesday next week :)! *Player1 is ignoring you* Hey! wtf? I know u effin IRL, im gonna kill u/comitt suicide!'
More possible to be caused my something IRL (Like a gang fight).
This might seem a lil' messy cause Im tired, BUT: Don't blame video games! Blame lazy parents, bullies and fat food! (Just had to add fat food for fun :P)
If they're censoring warlock spells (must me really hilarious to see a bag flying towards your face), can you guys ever watch the movie Braveheart? :P
But I must this wasnt very surprising to me. I mean, with a government like that with a few massacres here and there, communism and so... Weird like hell all the way... What the hek did you expect?
Just gonna add something thats indeed immature: Democracy and the west world ftw ;)
PS: Nice lil' undeads they got you there :P I actually find them even more disgusting and scary without bones showing. ^^
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