This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Lvl 80 Ele shammy
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
127407
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Mesoforte
I'm aware of how elemental dps works. The claim you all make when this arguement starts is that CL is better to cast before 1900 SP, but once you hit 1900 you should drop CL.
Can you quote me making that claim? No you can't, can you.
In your previous post, you mentioned your LB were 1.75s cast, and your CL at 1.31(?). Obviously, you can cast 4 LB, and have 1 second left over before LvB comes back up. So you're suggesting you cast nothing for 1 second rather than cast the shorter CL? With your haste, you'd be casting a flame shock every other rotation to fill that hole, and should be casting CL in the rounds where you don't have to refresh Flame shock.
Someone's not taking into account latency. Or, to quote myself-
And thinking about the difference, I think I can tell you why the lightning bolt rotation is consistently going higher than the chain lightning rotation-
Elemental dps is dependent upon the amount of spells you can squeeze in between Lava Bursts. Chain Lightning does slightly less actual damage than lightning bolt with ~.43 seconds difference in their cast time.
2000*4>1900+2000*3
or
2000*4>1900*2+2000*2
Instead of normalizing the damage per cast, normalizing it to the cooldown of Lava Burst would probably be more beneficial.
You can fit 2 chain lightnings in between 1 lava burst with 2 lightning bolts to stagger the Chain lightning cooldown. However, you can also fit 4 lightning bolts in between 1 lava burst. The Chain Lightning cooldown actually hinders you because either you have to cast an extra lightning bolt to stagger it, or you have to wait ~.5 seconds to use the next chain lightning. If you stagger it with a second lightning bolt, you lose out on dps from the next lava burst because it will finish a second after the cooldown is up on that.
And before I forget, yes I did try only throwing 1 CL between lava bursts instead of 2. It still resulted in a loss.
A straight LB spam (to vet out flameshock and lava burst differences) shows more dps in recount than a CL, LB, LB, CL spam. There is roughly a 200 damage difference between CL and LB on average. The crit difference is a little less than 1000 damage, favoring LB.
1.75+1.75+1.75+1.75=7 sec.
CL has a cast time of 1.34 on my current haste (and I'm nowhere close to optimal)
So no, you can't fit in an extra chain lightning without suspending the lava burst cooldown by 1.34 seconds. Its more important to cast lava burst (As the cooldown will probably be up due to latency) than to hit CL. Not only that, but the lower than 2 sec cast time on lava burst frees up the global cooldown for usage of flameshock. You only need to recharge it every 2 lava bursts, so you have 2 free seconds after 8 casts of lightning bolt to recharge it.
At that point CL is both worth more DPS than LB AND delays LvB less. Obviously, there are haste values where you end up with lesser amounts of dead space in your rotation, and some of those cases it is probably fine to delay casting. But a one second delay seems too much.
So, have you run the test yet? Hmm? That's the one thing you seem incapable of doing.
I wonder why.
I have a friend who runs CL in his rotation. He only uses it when elemental focus is up, and when I got him to run a LB rotation for me, he pointed out that lava burst was coming off cooldown just as his fifth lightning bolt finished.
In case you've completely missed the point of this conversation-
The only time you should use CL is to stagger a LvB cooldown. If there is no need to use CL to stagger the cooldown, you will lose dps.
If you find that you don't agree with that, I suggest you argue against it. However if you can't find any issue with that statement, then please just say "I agree" and let it be.
Post by
lucius
So the answer to your question of why not to bother with CL on single targets- It has lower damage scaling than lightning bolt.
And no, I'm not going to respec and spend gold to prove a point when the math and even the data you post supports my point of view.
Post by
Mesoforte
I don't see anything about LB being better after 1900 sp. And the statement itself is true, LB does scale better than CL. Check the posts after that statement. And recheck the data that "supports" your point of view, and recheck your math. If you normalize the CL dps rotation into the lava burst cooldown, LB spam gives higher damage. If you read the data, it supports that idea.
I took the flaw in my initial argument and pointed out a flaw in yours. The least you could do is recognize it instead of blindly not readjusting your initial statement.
If you have no further argument that hasn't been addressed, then you've already proven yourself to be a recalcitrant idiot not worth my time.
Though I for one find it hilarious that you are not elemental, yet choose to speak for them without the willingness to at least do a real time check of your incorrectly calculated math.
Post by
lucius
My math is fine. 'You all' is the plural you. In each of the screenshots of yours I looked at, CL had higher dps. You can verify that yourself. The overall rotation may have had lower dps, but that's user error or messing up the rotation (forgetting flametongue weapon, letting flame shock fall off just before a lava burst, miscasting).
Lava Burst does dictate your rotation, which will change as you gather haste or gain buffs during combat (bloodlust). I won't argue with that, but that's significantly different than saying to not cast CL because it 'scales slower' or 'doesn't hit as hard as LB past 1900'.
CL is just as good or bad for your rotation (based on your haste value!) at all reasonable levels of spellpower, as show by my (badlol?) math.
Post by
Mesoforte
Lava Burst does dictate your rotation, which will change as you gather haste or gain buffs during combat (bloodlust). I won't argue with that, but
that's significantly different than saying to not cast CL because it 'scales slower' or 'doesn't hit as hard as LB past 1900'
.
The only reason to use chain lightning is to stagger your casts onto the lava burst cooldown.
The overall rotation may have had lower dps, but that's user error or messing up the rotation (forgetting flametongue weapon, letting flame shock fall off just before a lava burst, miscasting).
-The rotation in between lava bursts below (Oh, and its called a /castsequence macro, I use it in any tests I do, based upon the cooldowns and cast times of the spells, as well as the duration of the dots)-
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8965/wow2009072413085122.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5561/wow2009072413085692.jpg
152504 in 43 casts with chain lightning and LB ~3-1 ratio which is correct on the rotation.
157246 in 43 casts with only LB
2000 on LB
1900 on CL
2000*4=8000/8=1000 dps 0 seconds of no damage
1900*2+2000*2=7800/8=975 dps 1 second of no damage.
1900+2000*3=7900/8=987.5 dps .5 seconds of no damage
I'm aware of how elemental dps works. The claim you all make when this arguement starts is that CL is better to cast before 1900 SP, but once you hit 1900 you should drop CL.
You couldn't quote me saying that, so you changed your claim-
I won't argue with that, but that's significantly different than saying to not cast CL because it 'scales slower' or 'doesn't hit as hard as LB past 1900'.
I took the flaw in my initial argument and pointed out a flaw in yours. The least you could do is recognize it instead of blindly not readjusting your initial statement.
CL is just as good or bad for your rotation (based on your haste value!) at all reasonable levels of spellpower, as show by my (badlol?) math.
Someone's not taking into account latency.
1.75+1.75+1.75+1.75=7 sec.
CL has a cast time of 1.34 on my current haste (and I'm nowhere close to optimal)
So no, you can't fit in an extra chain lightning without suspending the lava burst cooldown by 1.34 seconds. Its more important to cast lava burst (
As the cooldown will probably be up due to latency
) than to hit CL. Not only that, but the lower than 2 sec cast time on lava burst frees up the global cooldown for usage of flameshock. You only need to recharge it every 2 lava bursts, so you have 2 free seconds after 8 casts of lightning bolt to recharge it.
Its sad when I can argue this using mostly quotes. That tells you how much your argument runs across itself. I have no idea what you mean by-
'You all' is the plural you.
As I never made a reference to a plural "you".
You stopped actually arguing against what I was saying a long time ago. So, I stand by my last statement-
If you have no further argument that hasn't been addressed, then you've already proven yourself to be a recalcitrant idiot not worth my time.
Post by
127407
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lucius
Personally, I find the quote pyramids to make posts unreadable. And you don't seem to respond to my objections.
Objection 1:
I'm aware of how elemental dps works. The claim
you all
make when this arguement starts is that CL is better to cast before 1900 SP, but once you hit 1900 you should drop CL.
You couldn't quote me saying that, so you changed your claim-
...
Its sad when I can argue this using mostly quotes. That tells you how much your argument runs across itself. I have no idea what you mean by-
'You all' is the plural you.
As I never made a reference to a plural "you".
Objection 1 (explaination): I am amused you quote both and don't connect the two. Chide me for not responding to my comment and then dismiss my response as not being pertinent to anything you said. It leads me to believe you don't read what I say, but it's equally likely I was too unclear. Believe me when I say my two quotes are connected.
Post by
lucius
**Various Numbers**
I just plain don't agree with your methodology. /castsequence is the first major mistake. Go to a warlock forum and ask them for a /castsequence macro for your affliction build and everyone will tell you you can't do that with staggered cooldowns.
Another flaw would be designing your rotation so that LB fits perfectly into the LvB cooldown, and then saying if you include CL you'll just stand around 1/8 of the time. Really? Someone dpsing 100% of the time does more damage than someone that stands around not casting for 6 seconds out of every minute?
Post by
lucius
KK lucious 1 question...why do you normalize the spells cast time down to 1 sec?
It's crucial when comparing spells.
So your math yes are wrong, here are some simple math again here.
IGNORE CAST TIMES for one reason, even if the spell cast time is 1 billion seconds when it lands it will still hit as much as it says on the spell it will so casting time makes no difference, AND since CL has a CoolDown and it cannot be spammed, the only Question is if it hits more than LB when it is off cooldown and you can cast it, the reason we ask this is for one reason, if it hits more than LB on a single target then when we have CL ready then we will cast CL and not LB if this is not simple enough for someone to understand then pls leave the forum now!
To continue with the basic maths as i have posted before and to prove my poit this time i will take average dmgs like you have said i should do for calculations
I will also show you why after you go over 1900 spell power (buffed or unbuffed) you must stop using chain lightining on single target fights as always
I found this after doing some more research about the subject
so CL hits for 973 - 1111 Average 1042
and LB hits for 715 - 815 Average 765
All spell dmg increase talents affect both CL and LB except Shamanish that gives 10% of spell power extra to LB and the Glyph of LB that increases the OVER ALL dmg of lighting bolt by 4%
we assume we have 1000 spell power so that would mean:
CL is 1042 + 1000 = 2042
LB is 1000+ 10% of 1000 from shamanism so 1100 spell power + base dmg we said average is 765 so LB hits 1865 with shamanish and the glyph increases the over all dmg by 4% so we have a total of 1939.6
So End Results
CL hits 2042
LB hits 1939.6 even with the increace so using CL is the better option
Now the same calculations only this time we assume we have 1900 spell power
CL hits for 1042 + 1900 = 2942
LB is 1900 +10% of 1900 from shamanism so 2090 spell power + base dmg we said average is 765 so LB hits 2855 with shamanish and the glyph increases the over all dmg by 4% so we have a total of 2969.2
So End Results
CL hits 2942
LB hits 2969.2
As you can see past the 1900 spell power your LB hits for more than Chain Lighting
So after 1900 stop using CL and use LB as for the .5 sec slower cast i can assure you it is not a problem and you will do more over all dmg spamming LB only (you probably are facing lag as well in game dont forget that)
...
I would also like to hear what Mesoforte thinks about what i have posted here Agree/Disagree?
Your math is very wrong. As a simple example, consider the following two spells and tell me which one you cast:
Smolefire 6 second cast hits for 3000
Frostmote 2.5 second cast hits for 1500.
Post by
Gnub
The error in DarkFenix' post is that spellpower doesn't increase the damage like that - how much damage it adds is based on the base cast of the spell (LB is 2.5 and CL is 2.0), divided by 3.5. Thus, it's obvious that LB scales better.
... I could go on for ages, if I had to explain the most simple casting mechanics.
Post by
127407
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Mesoforte
Personally, I find the quote pyramids to make posts unreadable. And you don't seem to respond to my objections.
Actually, the responding quote responds to the objection. If you cannot read something that says "Lucius said"; "Mesoforte said" then I have to wonder at your reading comprehension. I'm not going to bother retyping responses to your "new" objections when they are just repeats of what I already addressed. Also, that's not a quote pyramid, they look a lot different than just a chain of quotes.
Objection 1 (explaination): I am amused you quote both and don't connect the two. Chide me for not responding to my comment and then dismiss my response as not being pertinent to anything you said. It leads me to believe you don't read what I say, but it's equally likely I was too unclear. Believe me when I say my two quotes are connected.
Oh I connected the two, and it showed that your generalization was untrue. You had to change the criteria of your assertion because of it.
I just plain don't agree with your methodology. /castsequence is the first major mistake. Go to a warlock forum and ask them for a /castsequence macro for your affliction build and everyone will tell you you can't do that with staggered cooldowns.
Unless you stagger the cooldowns until they repeat. All you have to do is map out the casts until the rotations complete. At that point you have every spell you could include in the rotation. If you map out both of them, both rotations (the cl and Lb) repeat at roughly 28 seconds.
The numbers I present fit the CL rotation with a ~ 3-1 ratio. If the rotation is done right that's what it should show. If you can't understand that, then you're worthless.
Another flaw would be designing your rotation so that LB fits perfectly into the LvB cooldown, and then saying if you include CL you'll just stand around 1/8 of the time. Really? Someone dpsing 100% of the time does more damage than someone that stands around not casting for 6 seconds out of every minute?
I designed three rotations, one where 4 LB fit in, one where 1 CL and 3 LB fit in, and one where 2 CL and 2 LB fit in. Due to the fact that the CL and LB cast times aren't that different, its impossible to fit more than that in. If you would take your shaman and actually try the test, you would notice that the rotation is correct.
Post by
Mesoforte
Sorry Lucius, but if you're going to refuse to test out your math and refuse to normalize it to the lava burst cooldown, then I give up. I can only argue with a person for so long when they act like a troll. Your math still has a flaw, but if you refuse to recognize it, then there isn't any point.
To anyone who would dare to question his "math," I recommend trying all three rotations as many times as I had to in this pursuit to prove a point. I think you will find that unless you need to use chain lightning to stagger the cooldown of lava burst, that its usage will result in a net loss of dps.
Post by
Haxzor
I lol at the thought of using CL on a single target, I'd much rather use Frost Shock than CL
Post by
lucius
Here's your normalized example:
Consider 18.75% total haste. This gives you LB as a 1.68s cast and CL as a 1.26s.
A corollary to your example using an 8 second window:
4xLB takes 6.72 seconds
2000x4 = 8000 or 1000dps
4xLB, CL takes 7.98 seconds
2000x4+1900 = 9900 or 1238 dps.
Therefore chain lightning wins.
Lava burst has too many talents affecting it for me to bother trying to calculate right now, but you could argue that you could cast a 5th LB and delay LvB. Which would be a dps loss.
I don't see how I've changed the criteria of my assertion.
Post by
Mesoforte
CL works fine (and does more damage) if you are able to include it.
Here's your normalized example:
Consider 18.75% total haste. This gives you LB as a 1.68s cast and CL as a 1.26s.
A corollary to your example using an 8 second window:
4xLB takes 6.72 seconds
2000x4 = 8000 or 1000dps
4xLB, CL takes 7.98 seconds
2000x4+1900 = 9900 or 1238 dps.
Therefore chain lightning wins.
Lava burst has too many talents affecting it for me to bother trying to calculate right now, but you could argue that you could cast a 5th LB and delay LvB. Which would be a dps loss.
I don't see how I've changed the criteria of my assertion.
The act of including it when you don't need to results in a loss, as I said. The act of including it when you need to is what it's useful for, as I said. So how are you arguing with me anymore when you just in fact confirmed what I said?
I think you will find that unless you need to use chain lightning to stagger the cooldown of lava burst, that its usage will result in a net loss of dps.
I think the act of you continuing this now is the very definition of trolling.
Post by
lucius
I'm not so much as agree with you as simply saying the same thing as I have been the whole time. We're probably both equally guilty of not reading each other's posts as well as we should.
Post by
Mesoforte
Well, I just wanted you to understand one thing, that Chain Lightning would not always result in more damage. There are times where it will, and there are times where it won't. Taking your example, with just a little more haste there's a 1.6 second cast time on LB that fills the gap perfectly. At that point its completely unfeasible to cast chain lightning.
There are points of latency and haste at other places where this is true also.
Post by
lucius
Well, I just wanted you to understand one thing, that Chain Lightning would not always result in more damage. There are times where it will, and there are times where it won't. Taking your example, with just a little more haste there's a 1.6 second cast time on LB that fills the gap perfectly. At the point its completely unfeasible to cast chain lightning.
There are points of latency and haste at other places where this is true also.
As I said before, I'm well aware of the elemental shaman mechanics ;p. There are good reasons for not casting Chain Lightning, and there are bad (wrong) reasons. I'm glad our discourse atleast moved you to valid reasons to sometimes not cast CL.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.