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Post by
ElhonnaDS
I agree that it's sad that so many people do so little to take care of their kids education, and making sure they grow up to be a good person with values, and morals, and a sense of responsibility :(
Post by
MyTie
I agree that it's sad that so many people do so little to take care of their kids education, and making sure they grow up to be a good person with values, and morals, and a sense of responsibility :(
Agreed, which I feel is the root cause of poor education in the US, not as gamer thinking, lack of funding.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Ummm....Boron. In the USA, school is also mandatory. If you don't go to school your parents can go to jail for violating truancy laws, for not making you go. And public school up to grade 12 (about age 18) is completely free, and most districts (maybe all) have free transportation via buses that pick kids up from their neighborhoods, and drop them back off.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Ah- misunderstood the correlation you were drawing.
Post by
MyTie
Well, I believe problem is in mentality of society. For instance, the example of Chinese kids, you used, MyTie, schools in China are mandatory.Same with the US. Education is mandatory. Even though some seek alternate school, public school is BY FAR, the most used form of education in the US, and in public schools, we have horrible levels of knowledge. It's embarrassing, so even WITH participation, we don't do well. Therefore, I don't buy your reasoning. But, your original statement was a bit too harsh for what you actually meant.How so? I think government care taking is an enabler for bad parents. I maintain that.Ummm....Boron. In the USA, school is also mandatory. If you don't go to school your parents can go to jail for violating truancy laws, for not making you go. And public school up to grade 12 (about age 18) is completely free, and most districts (maybe all) have free transportation via buses that pick kids up from their neighborhoods, and drops them back off.
This is the point. MyTie says that this allow parents not to care about kids, and hence the results, but in other countries it works, so clearly govenment being an enabler is not an issue.
I don't think public school on its own is the enabler.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Teaching jobs are pretty attractive as it is Boron. There is a lot of vacation, a decent level of pay and after a certain number of years they get tenure, which means that they absolutely cannot be fired unless they do something really, really wrong- like sleep with a student or beat them up or something. They are guaranteed a job regardless of job performance from when they get tenure until the day they retire.
In fact, that might be an issue. I feel that if a teacher is doing poorly, or can't keep up with new material as it comes out, it's a disadvantage to the kids to keep them teaching regardless.
Post by
MyTie
That is different problem. Clearly, quality of education might be a problem, but making job of a teacher attractive might solve the problem.
Uhh....
this kind of pay
with massive breaks? Working an inside desk job? That's really
really
attractive.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I think we reconciled this topic pretty well. Let's move along.
Boron, why don't you go fish up a news article for us to hack at? Let's see what you can get!
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
It's a dynamic I'm not fully informed on. I feel that if it is democracy, the people should be allowed to vote for whoever they want to. At the same time, I don't believe that democracy is a means to an automatic good.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gamerunknown
Agreed, which I feel is the root cause of poor education in the US, not as gamer thinking, lack of funding.
Actually that's a fair point. There's something wrong with the education model in the US that isn't corrected with the huge per capita spending. It could be individual or systemic: I'd lean towards systemic since I tend to prefer situational differences. That systemic problem
could
be government enabling of poor parenting. I don't really have a better explanation at the moment.
Post by
MyTie
Actually that's a fair point. There's something wrong with the education model in the US that isn't corrected with the huge per capita spending. It could be individual or systemic: I'd lean towards systemic since I tend to prefer situational differences. That systemic problem
could
be government enabling of poor parenting. I don't really have a better explanation at the moment.
Imagine yourself sitting in school with students who are performing poorly on tests. Imagine yourself sitting in one of their average classrooms, as an invisible observer. What would it look like? What would be going on? How would the kids be reacting to the information being presented?
Post by
gamerunknown
What would it look like? What would be going on? How would the kids be reacting to the information being presented?
One of the schools near me is like that, the kids in the class ignore the teacher, jump out of the window, smoke in the playground (age 11-16). I'm guessing what contributes to that behaviour is probably parental uninvolvement, large class sizes, failure to identify learning disabilities from a young age and provide adequate resources to aid them.
Post by
MyTie
What would it look like? What would be going on? How would the kids be reacting to the information being presented?
One of the schools near me is like that, the kids in the class ignore the teacher, jump out of the window, smoke in the playground (age 11-16). I'm guessing what contributes to that behaviour is probably parental uninvolvement, large class sizes, failure to identify learning disabilities from a young age and provide adequate resources to aid them.
I agree with all of that, but think that the behavior is probably the dominate issue here, with the others as contributing factors.
So, how can we go about correcting the problem?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
My best friend is a teacher, and my sister took a lot of early education courses and has dealt with young children quite a bit. Both of them complain about the parents more than anything else, when it comes to the kids. Their number one complaint is that a lot of parents don't feel that they need to discipline their kids. I'm not talking about anything controversial like physical discipline, either.
There are a lot of new wave parenting ideas about letting your kids "express themselves" and "find their own way," and so some parents feel like it's wrong to punish their kids for acting out, or enforce the rules with consequences. Other parents are too worried about being the kid's friend, and won't be able to stand by a punishment if the kid gets upset. Other parents are worried about discipline only when the kid's actions directly affect them, and so if they're in school, or a public place, and the parent doesn't have to deal with the behavior or clean up after it, they let the kids do whatever they want. The end result is that no one curbs the kids behavior at home, no one teaches them the idea of consequences for their actions, no one makes them buckle down and study or do homework, and no one instills in them a sense responsibility to meet certain standards, and the kids grow up not understanding basic rules of how to be successful in society.
You also have a population of adults where many of them never seemed to shake the "don't be a nerd, school is for losers," junior high mentality. A lot of kids have it, many mature out of it in high school, or during college. But only if that's what they've been taught. Many others have this "victim" mentality, and don't feel like putting an effort out in school is worth it, because their kids won't be able to do any better than they did, because society won't "let" them. These are parents who, when a teacher calls them about a student's grades, aren't ashamed to say "So what? Who cares?" If you're growing up with that as the prevailing mentality, then you're not going to take school seriously, and you're going to teach your kids not to take school seriously.
And then, when the kids don't do well financially, don't go to college, can't find a job because arrest record or lack of skills and education, can't keep a job because of poor attitude and and no work ethic, those same parents who taught them that school didn't matter and that there were no consequences as long as they didn't bother the parents with whatever they were doing will teach them that society is designed to keep them from achieving anything, or that the economy has cheated them and it's someone else's fault that there aren't enough jobs for people who have no degree, cannot read and write their only language correctly, and can barely do enough math to count back change.
A lot of people would say "It wasn't like that back in the day," but I only had the experience of what my parents taught me, and my friends parents taught them, and so I don't think that's enough of a sampling for me to say whether this has always been like this, or is getting worse. But I really think that a lot of parents are socializing their kids poorly, not teaching them self-discipline or to meet certain academic expectations, and so that's causing a lower standard of education, regardless of the money spent. Which in turn is leading to a surplus of untrained labor, lower economic growth and production, higher crime rates, etc.
And I don't think that parenting skills is something you can legislate, or educate many adults out of, or throw money at. Other than protecting kids from actually dangerous parents, I don't think society can do much to change the morals and values that they teach their kids, even when those morals encourage laziness, lack of personal responsibility, disrespect for other people, disregarding education, lack of work ethic, etc.
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