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Post by
Patty
I'd say the most extreme views espoused by Jesus (if taken literally) would be self-mutilation, complete pacifism (informing others if they've sinned) and choosing one's religion over one's family. Taking the New Testament as a whole the concept least in line with Western culture is probably Paul saying women shall have no authority over men, nor permission to speak in Church nor to wear expensive clothes. Judging by canon, Jesus never killed nor slept with anyone.
The Quran dictates rules of engagement for battle, allowing the killing of transgressors. It offers instructions on divorce for when a girl hasn't started menstruating yet (as far as I'm aware). There is a Surah where that which is forbidden to others is permitted of Muhammad. Various hadith indicate that Muhammad married a girl (Aisha) when she was six and consummated the marriage at either nine or sixteen.
The Quran may not instruct its followers to be violent, but Muhammad, unlike Christ, makes no effort towards practising or preaching pacifism as far as I'm aware.
Well, each book was created in different cultures and this reflected in their respective heroes. I personally see no difference between Jesus, Muhammad and Hercules for example, because as far as I know, all three are mythical people who people of the culture where they were created considered to be someone to admire and follow.
However, Boronidze, I think gamer's main point is that whilst that may have been more like a cultural norm or more culturally acceptable during their time, it leads to a massive case of moral dissonance when applied to current society.
Post by
557473
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Fox wants you to know that the picture of Whitney Houston in her casket on the front page, was in poor taste. They have
included
a picture of the newspaper's picture of Whitney Houston in her casket. Well done.
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
hate crimes against gays by people who said it was an abomination according to the bible. And then there were the Crusades, and the Inquisition, so...All of this is the fundamentals of Christianity? You misunderstand me, Elhonna. There are those that profess to be Christian that do terrible things, and say they are motivated by Christ's teachings. No doubt about that. But again, that's not what I was talking about. Try to back off form the overused talking points for just a second (seriously, the Crusades? How many times do you think I've heard that in a religion debate? Christ will be paying for the actions of the Catholic Church for centuries), and look again at what I was saying.
What you said, verbatim, was that fundamental Islam often leads to violence, and fundamental Christianity never does. I just showed several major examples of where, in fact, it did. You stated, as someone who is well-versed in that religion, that those people were not following the true spirit of the religion, and represent it in name only. Which is what people who are of the Muslim faith say about Islamic fundamentalists who are violent.
My point was not that Christianity is bad, but that even though it teaches peace and love, many people still use it as an motivator to do horrible things. What I was pointing out was, that to an outside observer with no knowledge of the religion, Christianity may appear as violent as Islam seems to appear to you. I was pointing out that similar examples could be given for both religions, but as someone who is very familiar with your religion you know why such examples do not embody your faith and are not a good example of your beliefs. I'm asking you to realize that, as someone who hasn't read the Quran, your opinion about how much of the violence instigated by Islamic fundamentalism comes from the base religion is about as informed as someone who has never read the bible and would judge Christianity as a whole by the crusades, the inquisition, and headlines made by the Westborough Baptist Church.
Post by
MyTie
My point was not that Christianity is bad, but that even though it teaches peace and love, many people still use it as an motivator to do horrible things. What I was pointing out was, that to an outside observer with no knowledge of the religion, Christianity may appear as violent as Islam seems to appear to you. I was pointing out that similar examples could be given for both religions, but as someone who is very familiar with your religion you know why such examples do not embody your faith and are not a good example of your beliefs. I'm asking you to realize that, as someone who hasn't read the Quran, your opinion about how much of the violence instigated by Islamic fundamentalism comes from the base religion is about as informed as someone who has never read the bible and would judge Christianity as a whole by the crusades, the inquisition, and headlines made by the Westborough Baptist Church.
Then your judgement isn't of the statement I made. You aren't refuting that those who follow fundamental Islam are violent. Nor are you refuting that those who follow fundamental Christianity aren't violent. You're judgment is of my knowledge of the topic, which you yourself know nothing about. You don't know what I don't know. How many times have I read the Quran? How many times have I been to a Mosque? Have I ever studied with devout Muslims?
Refute the statement, not the person.
Post by
Adamsm
The idea that all fundamentalist Islam followers are violence crazed monsters is just as bad as the idea that all Christian Fundamentalist are Bible thumping hicks.
Post by
MyTie
However, fundamental Islam often leads to violence.The idea that all fundamentalist Islam followers are violence crazed monsters
As you can see, I didn't make any absolute statements. However, I will now: Whenever you, Adamsm, participate in a debate with me, you ALWAYS either take me out of context or misquote me. I see that you replied to a thread I am in and I find it immediately bothersome.
By the way, why is there always someone that jumps on the "you hate all Muslims" bandwagon in every religious debate about them?
Post by
Adamsm
I didn't aim that at you MyTie, was merely reinforcing what Elhonna was saying; that due to the extremist factors, people see the violence over everything else and feel fine with painting an entire religious group with a broad stroke comment. Again, not saying you do that MyTie cause I know you don't.
Post by
MyTie
I didn't aim that at you MyTie, was merely reinforcing what Elhonna was saying; that due to the extremist factors, people see the violence over everything else and feel fine with painting an entire religious group with a broad stroke comment. Again, not saying you do that MyTie cause I know you don't.
I see. Odd that you would point that out. I've not seen anyone on here EVER that thought that all Muslims were violent. However, about once a week someone points out that this is simply not the case. It feels like one big strawman that everyone points to and weeps.
Post by
Adamsm
I have, but they were the trolls so they don't count. I don't know, I think it's one of those points that comes from any discussion involving anything to do with religion: Pretty much all of them have a really dark period somewhere in the past, and that dark part is always dragged up(either seriously((a la news networks)) or sarcastically((pretty much anywhere else))) and used as a strawman to show we shouldn't be like that.
Of course, when it comes to the Believer vs the Atheist groups.....
Post by
MyTie
I have, but they were the trolls so they don't count. I don't know, I think it's one of those points that comes from any discussion involving anything to do with religion: Pretty much all of them have a really dark period somewhere in the past, and that dark part is always dragged up(either seriously((a la news networks)) or sarcastically((pretty much anywhere else))) and used as a strawman to show we shouldn't be like that.
Of course, when it comes to the Believer vs the Atheist groups.....
But this is a big strawman only for Islam. Why the big drive to apologize for them?
Post by
Squishalot
Yeah, would be tough job being Abbott and Gillard though. Considering at the last election they were in a two horse race...and both lost.
I still think that the best leaders are Turnbull and Rudd at the moment, previously Costello and Rudd.
Post by
Adamsm
But this is a big strawman only for Islam. Why the big drive to apologize for them?
No clue.
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawCharacter
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Can someone explain this "strawman"? I have heard that term used a lot in these forums...
A "strawman" is an invented point that is argued against, in the middle of a debate.
Example
Person 1: I don't believe in Jesus
Person 2: So you hate all Christians and want them to die.
Person 1: No, I just don't believe in the fact that Jesus is God.
So person 2 there invented a "strawman" argument to go against when that point was never made by person 1.
In this case it is like this:
Person 1: I think Islam often leads to violence.
Person 2: Not all Muslims are violent, you religious bigot!
Person 1: I never said they were.
There is this invented argument on this forum, and in society at large. The invented argument is "All Muslims are violent". It is this giant strawman, and every chance people get, they beat the hell out of it. I've never actually heard anyone say that "all Muslims are violent". I think people feel religiously tolerant to harp against the strawman. It makes them feel more... I don't know... vogue.
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Strawman Explanation
So it is basically like quoting someone out of context, and then responding to that with an argument against a quote they never actually made?
Exactly.
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