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Post by
wrlwnd
Ryja, I think what I said went right over your head. I will try to be more clear.
Quite simply, people speaking out against the commercial WILL be right wing
(considering that's a major tenant of the right wing not only in America, but elsewhere - nationalism). The majority of people who press for education and eradication of attitudes such as this are almost exclusively left wing (considering that's a major tenant of the left wing - trying to get all people on equal footing, no matter what race/gender/orientation etc).
Sure, there are moderates in America, but the large majority of the people speaking out against this commercial are NOT moderate, and therefore will take anything a leftist says with a truckload of salt.
I take umbrage at the bolded statement. I consider myself quite far right wing and many of those I associate with are of the same mindset HOWEVER, we do not ascribe to this particular mindset. putting this on one side or the other is as wrong headed as the idiots taking issue with the commercial, in my opinion.
Post by
Gone
Here's my issue: Just because somebody is ignorant, do you really think that means that they can't change? If this were the case then slavery would never have been abolished, and the political climate in America would always stay the same. People can change, but they only do so when you focus on education over mockery. Yes, maybe there are some people that are too far gone. But for the most part, ignorance is just that. it doesn't equate to hatefulness necessarily. Often times people hate another group of people because they don't understand them.
Benjamin Franklin began his life as an apologist for slavery. He believed, despite being a northerner, that the South had every right to maintain slaves, and he even owned them himself. He even got wealthy off slavery, by running ads for the recapture of runaway slaves in his newspaper. Now it doesn't take much insight to see the hypocrisy of the way these ideals conflicted with his personal views of freedom and liberty. To add further to that, he himself was held in bondage as an indentured servant when he was a child.
One would think at first glance, a clearly intelligent man, once held in forcible servitude, from the north, who is a revolutionary, would have every reason to be an abolitionist, and that if he still remained an apologist for slavery, then he was so set in his ways that he's probably beyond help.
Then in 1762, the society on which he was a part founded a school for educating black children, and in the few years after visiting one and seeing how bright the children were, he became one of the country's fiercest abolitionists.
The point of this story being that no matter how set in their ways somebody is, they can always change. Mocking them and saying that education is futile just sets you up as their enemy, and closes the doors of communication even more.
Post by
Monday
My apologies, wrlwnd. I did not mean to imply that all right wingers will be mad at the commercial. I meant to say that of those who are mad at the commercial, the majority will be right wingers.
The point of this story being that no matter how set in their ways somebody is, they can always change. Mocking them and saying that education is futile just sets you up as their enemy, and closes the doors of communication even more.
You should know me well enough by now that I will try to change the people around me as much as I can. I'm never quiet on issues (especially of equality).
However, those that are actually turning this commercial into a scapegoat for the fight against immigration are not worth debating. I honestly don't see how I can change the person crying that judgment is near and perdition is upon us. I truly don't.
Therefore I won't try.
Post by
wrlwnd
My apologies, wrlwnd. I did not mean to imply that all right wingers will be mad at the commercial. I meant to say that of those who are mad at the commercial, the majority will be right wingers.
As I read the post it just hit me wrong and I had to point it out. Especially considering that in the last several posts you hit hard on several groups of which I am a member, highly conservative to the point of being considered a right-winger, a southerner as I consider Charleston, SC home and no college degree(which I felt as a peripheral connection.)
The point of this story being that no matter how set in their ways somebody is, they can always change. Mocking them and saying that education is futile just sets you up as their enemy, and closes the doors of communication even more.
You should know me well enough by now that I will try to change the people around me as much as I can. I'm never quiet on issues (especially of equality).
However, those that are actually turning this commercial into a scapegoat for the fight against immigration are not worth debating. I honestly don't see how I can change the person crying that judgment is near and perdition is upon us. I truly don't.
Therefore I won't try.
As I believe I have stated earlier, using this as anti-immigration is in my opinion plain stupid. Yes I have issues with some of the current proposal in regards to immigration reform, but that is for another discussion.
Post by
Monday
I'd also like to make a note of my last several posts: I don't hate right wingers or anything like that. I live in a heavily conservative area, and I've met many, many awesome people here. They don't share my views, but that doesn't particularly matter.
On here, I feel like people seem to take away that I hate the people themselves. I'm sorry if it sounds that way, as that's not what I mean. I dislike the institution, not the people (depending on the person, ofc). Support the soldiers, hate the war, etc.
Same with education. I think everyone should strive for it, but there are those who have made their way without it. All power to you. It's awesome seeing people make their way without forking over thousands and getting into debt
Post by
Adamsm
Adamsm's inability to understand strong regional accents is his own issue and making assumptions about those with that accent, based only off their voice, is the same flavour of wrong as the political incorrectness he's challenging. Personally, I would urge people to look to their own assumptions and prejudices before attacking others for expressing theirs.
As I've said, this just plain amuses me how people get so fired up over something as innocent as a commercial for one of the largest cultural melting pots in the world singing in their native languages. America is like Canada in that regards; without the immigrants, it wouldn't exist. Unlike Canada, America doesn't have an official second language...yet down there, if you are fluent in other languages, you have a better chance at getting some jobs. Up here if you are fluent in French Canadian, you can get a lot more jobs then just a straight English speaker can get.
Asa, it's true though, when some Southerners contact my job, it is very hard to understand them due to their speech tendencies and I've heard some of them make racists/bigoted comments over the phone, which do match up with what some people have been saying about the commercial.
The point of this story being that no matter how set in their ways somebody is, they can always change. Mocking them and saying that education is futile just sets you up as their enemy, and closes the doors of communication even more.That's assuming of course, they actually want to change. There are people out there who seem to enjoy being ignorant, and that their view point trumps everyone else. You can send a person to as many racial/social reform programs as possible, and if they resist what they are being told, it's not going to make a lick of difference.
Gotta admit, did not expect a fairly fluff commercial news story to create something like this.
Post by
wrlwnd
That's assuming of course, they actually want to change. There are people out there who seem to enjoy being ignorant, and that their view point trumps everyone else. You can send a person to as many racial/social reform programs as possible, and if they resist what they are being told, it's not going to make a lick of difference.
That is one of the issues I have with people on both sides of especially race arguments, that there is no possible middle ground, i.e. I am right and you are wrong.
I live in a small southern town and it is in many ways very divided along racial grounds to the point of most of the major religious denominations have a "black" church and a "white" church. I know there is some deep rooted issues there from an old issue that was chronicled in the book "Blood Done Sign my Name." This is an issue from back in 1970, but to many it is still fresh and important.
Post by
asakawa
Asa, it's true though, when some Southerners contact my job, it is very hard to understand them due to their speech tendencies and I've heard some of them make racists/bigoted comments over the phone, which do match up with what some people have been saying about the commercial.
The accent thing, you've just gotta get a grip on that if it's affecting your work - it's part of the melting pot of which you seem otherwise in favour.
However, "I've heard some of them..." this is very bad. Dangerous even.
I saw some black kids mugging an old lady therefore...
You see how wrong it is right? Your experience of a tiny slice of any group (real or imagined) tells you nothing about the whole and you make yourself appear bigoted and foolish if you try to extrapolate information about the many based on the few - good or bad.
Two wrongs don't make a right and your arguments on this issue that I've seen appear to be making the same error as the thing you're arguing against, only you're attacking something that it's apparently cool to attack.
The racism is bad; not the south, not people with strong southern accents, not republicans, not the entire right wing, not even people who would self-identify as "red necks".
Post by
Adamsm
I haven't attacked anyone here Asa. And I should probably start tagging things with the sarcasm tag to make it clear when I'm not being serious; the accents only affect my work in that I have to ask some people to repeat what they've said a few times. I'm honestly not sure why it's the deep south that has that happened; I can get a call from a first generation Hispanic or Asian customer and understand what they mean without any trouble. One of my first calls when I started working at my current job had a Asian caller with an incredibly thick accent call in, and my buddy(we were doubled up for our first week) had no idea what the guy was asking, but I figured it out fairly quickly.
You know I have an issue with pure stupidity and that's what the complaints about this ad have triggered inside me; I just find it so idiotic that a county built on immigration, can start complaining about a very sweet commercial that seems to be more about how they love their country.
Post by
Gone
That's assuming of course, they actually want to change.
There are people out there who seem to enjoy being ignorant, and that their view point trumps everyone else.
Yea I think I've seen the bolded attitude fairly recently...
Saying somebody can only change if they want to is an absurd cliche. Nobody wants to change if they think they're right, why would they? It's by being exposed to new viewpoints that they haven't considered that people actually find change. And this doesn't happen by making generalized stereotypes about people, and mocking them rather than trying to explain your viewpoint.
I notice this more and more with a certain crowd. People who are all about being politically correct when it comes to certain groups, but has no problem ridiculing and condemning people that are more safe to do so with, or that they feel deserve it.
Post by
Adamsm
A mind has to be open before change can take root inside of it.
Post by
Gone
A mind has to be open before change can take root inside of it.
What fortune cookie did you read that out of? Closed minded people change all the time. What do you think causes a person's mind to be open if not dialogue?
And furthermore, who are you to determine a person's mind is closed beyond repair simply by reading a comment they made on the internet?
Post by
Squishalot
Because Ryja is trying to be too polite to point it out, I'll say it straight:
Adamsm, you're being very closed minded about other people's closed mindedness, to a hypocritical extent.
I personally agree with Ryja on this one - people are intolerant and say stupid things because that's how they were brought up, and it's a product of circumstance and determinism, really. Ditto with regards to employment and good jobs and the like. That's what the whole push to close the poverty gap is all about - to reduce the socioeconomic gap between the 'rich' and the 'poor', which will have all the positive side effects of education and tolerance and so forth to people who aren't lucky enough to have it now.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Ryja, why do you seem to be taking this way more seriously then it should be? I've said multiple times that I see this as a massive joke; those comments are hilarious for how dumb they are. They have the right to make the comments...and those with opposing views have the right to make their comments.
After all, just like arses, everyone has opinions.
Adamsm, you're being very closed minded about other people's closed mindedness, to a hypocritical extent.I can't disagree with that comment.
Post by
Rankkor
Warning, the following link contains images that are not safe for work, including blood and gore, mostly on teenagers and young adults.
http://www.maduradas.com/indignante-estas-son-las-imagenes-que-maduro-no-quiere-que-veas-sobre-la-agresion-a-estudiantes
Those are the images my government doesn't want you to see. That right there is how the national guard responds to STUDENTS doing a peaceful protest on the streets. Brutality, oppression, and barbarism, while masquerading as the greatest democracy of the 21th century, and censoring the media about this s**t.
This protest was almost a week ago, as a result of mass shortages of food, price gouging, shortages of basic commodities, and full blown corruption when they allow markets to charge outrageous prices for even the most basic of the basics of edible food.
I haven't been able to attend to classes at the chef academy because for the past 9 days NOTHING can be found without paying a small fortune. Chicken, milk, eggs, bread, flour, salt, sugar, mayonaise, butter, rice, among others are being sold at SEVEN times its normal pricing.
People go out into the streets to protest this outrage, and the government responds like this. And then they cover the whole thing up, not a single news station was allowed to show any form of images. The link I provided is in spanish, and its from a private blogger.
That bad we have it over here folks =(
Appreciate your freedom. That's a luxury we no longer have.
Post by
Skreeran
Wow, that really sucks. Hope it gets better there soon. :(
Post by
wrlwnd
Rankkor,
Seeing images of that nature always bring home to me the freedoms that I enjoy. While the US has issues, normally handling of peaceful demonstrations like that is not one of them.
Hope that your quest to emigrate from there comes to a close soon.
Post by
Rankkor
Here's a link in english.
Democracy here is just a bloody circus (with the "bloody" part being literal, not figurative)
Post by
morginar
It is indeed sad to see such things and I hope that there will be a beter time for your nation. And that the burning eye of the world turn to watch the reality that the goverment wants to keep in the dark.
Post by
Rankkor
Update on the venezuelan situation: (Both links are in english now, and completely safe for work. No shocking images)
Of course Maduro blames the United States for everything.
Aditional info.
This one is from this weekend. My city looks like a battlefield after the protests were over
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