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Post by
Squishalot
This was not just an attack on Britain and on the British way of life, it was also a betrayal of Islam and of the Muslim communities who give so much to our country. There is nothing in Islam that justifies this truly dreadful act.
MCB Press Conference Video. Muslim and interfaith leaders condemn #woolwich attacks unreservedly.
Condemning brutal murder in #Woolwich, London. Our prayers and thoughts go out to the family of the victim.
These actions are utterly unacceptable and clearly designed to stoke tensions and sow discord. We wholly condemn them.
What I did say, and I still say, is that Islam is a violent religion, and the non-violent majority of Muslims are the ones that do not follow what their religion teaches, much the same as the majority of Christians do not follow what the Bible teaches either.
I think it would be fair to say that it would be wrong to tar the non-violent majority of Muslims with the blood spilt by the practising ones, irrespective of whether they're following their religion correctly or not, in the same way that you quite fairly disassociate your practice of Christianity with the Westboro folks.
To be clear, you've tried to make the point that it's Islam's fault, because the Islamic holy book encourages this sort of behaviour. It's been fairly refuted that the Christian holy books do the same thing. The key thing is that, say, the Catholic Church does not advocate stoning homosexuals and being able to beat up your wife for holding hands with the next door neighbour. As such, it would be incorrect to associate the Catholic Church with any actions that were conducted in God's name to that effect. Likewise, if mainstream Muslim teachings do not advocate the murder of people, then it would be incorrect to associate those mainstream Muslim teachings with any actions that were conducted to that effect.
What you are doing is taking the extreme actions of a couple of Muslims and using that as 'evidence' that the Islamic faith is violent and intolerant. What you need to consider is that the corollary is to take the actions of Westboro and the KKK and use that as evidence that the Christian faith is violent and intolerant. Neither is a logical argument.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
Ksero
Moved
at mod request:
Dude, stop. We all know how this conversation is going to go. You wouldn't want Christianity to be judged based on the actions of extremists, stop judging Islam based on the actions of the same.
When Christians start beheading soldiers in public while shouting "Glory to Christ!" while doing it, then I would expect the article to be posted, and the judgement to be as harsh. Until then, I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.
Sorry, but that is not me calling all Muslims violent. In fact, I have said many times just in this discussion that all Muslims are not violent.
What I did say, and I still say,
is that Islam is a violent religion, and the non-violent majority of Muslims are the ones that do not follow what their religion teaches
, much the same as the majority of Christians do not follow what the Bible teaches either.
Then you are just factually wrong, or grossly misinformed. I can't argue with someone who will deny what is actually happening.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Magician, I would question your understanding of not only the Quran but also all the other sources of Islamic law, morality, and beliefs (sunnah, haddith, fiqh, etc.). Can you demonstrate more of a command over those texts than the average Muslim? If you can't, from where do you derive the authority to make claims like that?
Post by
Magician22773
What you are doing is taking the extreme actions of a couple of Muslims and using that as 'evidence' that the Islamic faith is violent and intolerant.
No, I am taking the extreme actions of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Muslims, coupling those actions with teachings directly from their own holy book, and using that to form an 'opinion' that the Islamic faith is violent and intolerant. I am simply using this incident as an example because it is current news. As I said before, I could fill a page or two on the forum with examples, and I would be happy to do so, if I actually thought it would make a difference.
To be clear, you've tried to make the point that it's Islam's fault, because the Islamic holy book encourages this sort of behaviour. It's been fairly refuted that the Christian holy books do the same thing. The key thing is that, say, the Catholic Church does not advocate stoning homosexuals and being able to beat up your wife for holding hands with the next door neighbour. As such, it would be incorrect to associate the Catholic Church with any actions that were conducted in God's name to that effect. Likewise, if mainstream Muslim teachings do not advocate the murder of people, then it would be incorrect to associate those mainstream Muslim teachings with any actions that were conducted to that effect.
First off, it happens all the time on this forum. The difference is, anti-Christians will go back thousands of years to the Crusades, or back to the time of Moses, to show how 'violent' Christianity is. Yet the best you may come up with in current events is a handful of nut-jobs that spout out some hate-speech or maybe, if you dig deep enough, you will find a couple of people here or there that commit some atrocious act and claim they were acting out God's will.
And I do not agree that anything has been "fairly refuted" in regards to Christianity. You have to go back to Old Testament Law to even come up with a reasonable example of calling for violence in the Bible. And you still can't produce me a single, recognized group that currently follows Old Testament Law. Even the most devout of Jews do not practice stoning and killing sinners.
Again, if this was just a group, or a few groups, my opinion might be different. But is not. It is numbers that easily could be in the millions. You have entire countries electing, democratically, "radical" Muslim groups to leadership. You have mobs of men in Afghanistan protesting because the President will not allow them to trade women to settle debts. And you have incident after incident after incident after incident of "Extremist Muslim" violence around the world.
Magician, I would question your understanding of not only the Quran but also all the other sources of Islamic law, morality, and beliefs (sunnah, haddith, fiqh, etc.). Can you demonstrate more of a command over those texts than the average Muslim? If you can't, from where do you derive the authority to make claims like that?
I understand the books of Islam enough to form an educated opinion of what the religion teaches. DO I know as much about it as an average Muslim? Probably not. But if that is a required metric for forming an opinion, then I would assume you feel the same way about the Atheists, or other religion followers that have an opinion of Christianity?
Then you are just factually wrong, or grossly misinformed. I can't argue with someone who will deny what is actually happening.
I do not think I am the one who is in denial here. Rather than just quote you the verses from Islam, I will just point you in the right direction. Google "hypocrite Quran" and then let me know how misinformed I am.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I understand the books of Islam enough to form an educated opinion of what the religion teaches. DO I know as much about it as an average Muslim? Probably not. But if that is a required metric for forming an opinion, then I would assume you feel the same way about the Atheists, or other religion followers that have an opinion of Christianity?
There is a difference between saying "I think that your beliefs are wrong" and saying "Your beliefs are contrary to your religion." And I'm surprised you don't recognize that.
Post by
Magician22773
I understand the books of Islam enough to form an educated opinion of what the religion teaches. DO I know as much about it as an average Muslim? Probably not. But if that is a required metric for forming an opinion, then I would assume you feel the same way about the Atheists, or other religion followers that have an opinion of Christianity?
There is a difference between saying "I think that your beliefs are wrong" and saying "Your beliefs are contrary to your religion." And I'm surprised you don't recognize that.
Its in the book. That part is not even
my
opinion, it is
theirs
.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I understand the books of Islam enough to form an educated opinion of what the religion teaches. DO I know as much about it as an average Muslim? Probably not. But if that is a required metric for forming an opinion, then I would assume you feel the same way about the Atheists, or other religion followers that have an opinion of Christianity?
There is a difference between saying "I think that your beliefs are wrong" and saying "Your beliefs are contrary to your religion." And I'm surprised you don't recognize that.
Its in the book. That part is not even
my
opinion, it is
theirs
.
It's
your
interpretation. If the average Muslim interprets it differently, and you've admitted that the average Muslim probably knows more about Islam than you, I ask again: where do you derive the authority to make claims like that?
Post by
Squishalot
I understand the books of Islam enough to form an educated opinion of what the religion teaches. DO I know as much about it as an average Muslim? Probably not. But if that is a required metric for forming an opinion, then I would assume you feel the same way about the Atheists, or other religion followers that have an opinion of Christianity?
There is a difference between saying "I think that your beliefs are wrong" and saying "Your beliefs are contrary to your religion." And I'm surprised you don't recognize that.
Its in the book. That part is not even
my
opinion, it is
theirs
.
There's a lot in the Christian books too. Are your beliefs contrary to your religion? You've gone on record a couple of pages ago to suggest as much.
Post by
Ksero
Magician, I base my experiences on the Muslim people I know, one of which I lived with for the past year, he was a practicing Muslim, extremely religious, he had moved from Pakistan to Canada last september, and honestly, he was the most honest, caring person I have met in my entire life. That is why I stand up for Islam, when you say it is violent, you incorrectly interpret their text and tell them that they are reading it the wrong way. If I was to go and say "you clearly aren't a true Christian go to
http://www.evilbible.com/
and you will see that I'm right." I'd probably be banned from this site. This is exactly what you are doing to Muslim people.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##And why would we ban you for that? :P
Post by
Sagramor
Errata:
On the Belize pyramid story, my mom is doing an article about it and therefore researching it thoroughly. Because of this, I have learned that indeed the bulldozed Mayan pyramid was indeed very valuable to historians and archeologists, and it's destruction was an offense to international law.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sagramor
I thought you just thought it was pretty.
By the way, it wasn't bulldozed to make way for the road, it was bulldozed to get gravel from it for the road.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sagramor
By the way, it wasn't bulldozed to make way for the road, it was bulldozed to get gravel from it for the road.
wow satan, calm down.
I know, right? I'm sure Belize has plenty of useless rock formations they could have blown up.
Post by
Ksero
@squish Probably should have said warned instead of banned, but you said that we should respect other religions, me posting that would have been disrespectful to Christians, because that site misinterprets the Bible.My knowledge of Islam comes from the experiences I have had Muslim people I know. Islam is not violent, even though some Muslim's may be violent. That is a problem of humanity, not a problem of the religion.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Link
A psychological survey was administered to children at a school, and one of the teachers is facing possible disciplinary action for advising the kids of their 5th amendment rights to not incriminate themselves of anything.
Post by
Squishalot
Link
A psychological survey was administered to children at a school, and one of the teachers is facing possible disciplinary action for advising the kids of their 5th amendment rights to not incriminate themselves of anything.
I would have thought that the psychology team collating the data and producing the survey would have had a privacy clause in there that prohibits them from disclosing responses to authorities anyway, as bound by the psychology codes of practice.
Post by
Monday
I thought you just thought it was pretty.
By the way, it wasn't bulldozed to make way for the road, it was bulldozed to get gravel from it for the road.
... animals.
Post by
Dragalthor
Why do I get this nagging feeling that this might not turn out for the best if it is agreed to.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22677599
.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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