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Post by
Gone
And for countless generations before the 1960s blacks were bullied, that doesn't make the civil rights movement a trend.
For a lot of people, it was. There were some leaders, there were some participators, and the rest was crowd mentality. You cannot honestly think that suddenly a nation spontaneously grew up. There are social influences there, and social influences exert great amounts of power on people. What I am saying, is that I despise people who do the right thing only because of the social influences. It's dishonest and based on THEMSELVES, not doing the right thing. And what happens when a negative social influence comes along?
I don't get what you're trying to say here. You're saying the civil rights movement was a trend, just crowd mentality... and this somehow makes it a bad thing?
Post by
MyTie
Following the crowd doesn't mean you don't agree with what the crowd is saying. It's simply means you're not taking a leadership role, which is completely fine.I said that following the crowd for the simple reason of following the crowd, NOT because you inherently believe it to be correct. Some people are unable to distinguish the right thing, from when the crowd believing the crowd to be right. I never said that being in a crowd of people doing right was the wrong thing. As you said:Let's not make this something it's not.
I wish you would not try to find something wrong with everything I say, regardless of what it is I am saying. This is such a simple concept. Doing something simply because the crowd is doing it isn't something that I think is a good thing. Don't try to twist it into something else, or dissect it until you can find something wrong with what I am saying. I'm trying to be patient with you, but if you are going to do nothing but beat on my beliefs, no matter how innocuous, then I'm going to start ignoring you.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I don't get what you're trying to say here. You're saying the civil rights movement was a trend, just crowd mentality... and this somehow makes it a bad thing?
I'm saying that I dislike the people who are doing it simply because the crowd is. If the crowd were doing something wrong, they would be there too.I know you think following the crowd is wrong because of following the crowd and not based on what the issue is. I don't agree, I think the issue is what makes the case.
But I agree with the civil rights movement, so what the hell are you talking about? This is why you are on your way to getting ignored, not because you believe differently than I do, but because you attack my beliefs, constantly, no matter what they are, and you do it so poorly that you must twist my beliefs into something they are not, and then attack that, as you are doing here.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Are you serious? We all read what you say as something, because you word it in a way that it can mean anything, leaning towards what we think you imply (and honestly it seems like you do it on purpose to be able to bait), yet everytime you just bash on me for "putting words in your mouth" when you have been saying the same thing several times.
You point something out as bad, and then use the civil rights movement as an example of something that involved what you thought was bad, and then you get mad saying you think it was a good thing. " It's dishonest and based on THEMSELVES, not doing the right thing." is what you ended the post about the civil rights movement with. How are we supposed to read that as anything else?
You expect us to understand exactly what you understand when you refuse to stop being so vague?
You know, I honestly think you believe that everything I believe is horrible, therefore everything I say here is tied to something horrible. Even if I don't say something horrible, you infer it, and say that I couldn't have meant anything else. You hate me so much that you must find something evil in everything I say. Can't you see how that could get tiring for me to deal with? I've been patiently explaining and defending my beliefs to you for weeks now. Usually I say something, then you make a bunch of inferences, then I reaffirm that I only believe my initial assertion, then you insist that I believe what you inferred, and this goes around and around in circles. It's as if I cannot speak for myself, and you know what I mean better than I do, even after I clarify your interpretation of what I am saying as wrong, you still reject it and insist that your interpretation of my beliefs is correct and mine are incorrect. According to you, I MUST BE EVIL, in everything I say. Even something as simple as not liking crowd mentality translates into pure unadulterated evil. Can't you see how I might be running thin on patience for this? Can't you see how I might just begin to ignore you, in short order? Why not do like the rest of everyone, and state your beliefs, and explain/defend them, instead of constantly attacking me, context be damned? I really appreciate your participation here, but having an Elura attack dog on my heels in every page of every debate isn't going to get you a trophy. I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish, but I can't think you are going to get anything out of it. Either take my beliefs at face value, and believe me when I explain what I believe, or leave me alone. I will no longer be taking time to explain that I don't believe what you tell me it is I believe.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
You were only disagreeing with me? I tell ya what, anymore of stuff like this:the civil rights movement as an example of something that involved what you thought was badand that's it, I'm done with talking about my beliefs with you. You know Ryja was the one that brought it up. I never said I disagreed with the movement. You simply inferred it. You know I was talking about crowd mentality. Yet, you still came up with this out of thin air. I've spent entirely too much time rebuffing your inferences.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
NKorea fires short range missiles.
Post by
Gone
You were only disagreeing with me? I tell ya what, anymore of stuff like this:the civil rights movement as an example of something that involved what you thought was badand that's it, I'm done with talking about my beliefs with you. You know Ryja was the one that brought it up. I never said I disagreed with the movement. You simply inferred it. You know I was talking about crowd mentality. Yet, you still came up with this out of thin air. I've spent entirely too much time rebuffing your inferences.
Stop acting like she's just pulling this stuff out of thin air. You started off saying that it's trendy to be anti racist, and implying that actions done by following the crowd are of inherently lesser value. You also acted like people being sensitive about racism and homophobia is just a phase.
You have this way of saying something and then saying something else completely contradictory to the first thing you said, the first thing usually being said as a preemptive defense to the problems you
know
people are going to have with the second thing. It always starts with "I think discrimination against gays is wrong,
but
..." or "I think rape in any context is wrong, and rapists should always be punished,
but
..."
If you have to type out some preemptive defense for whatever you're going to say, then that probably means whatever your going to say is a bad idea, and maybe it's even your subconscious telling you you're wrong.
Post by
MyTie
Stop acting like she's just pulling this stuff out of thin air. You started off saying that it's trendy to be anti racist, and implying that actions done by following the crowd are of inherently lesser value. You also acted like people being sensitive about racism and homophobia is just a phase.
You have this way of saying something and then saying something else completely contradictory to the first thing you said, the first thing usually being said as a preemptive defense to the problems you
know
people are going to have with the second thing. It always starts with "I think discrimination against gays is wrong,
but
..." or "I think rape in any context is wrong, and rapists should always be punished,
but
..."
If you have to type out some preemptive defense for whatever you're going to say, then that probably means whatever your going to say is a bad idea, and maybe it's even your subconscious telling you you're wrong.
This is a load of tripe. I stand by my initial assertion, that following the crowd for the sake of following the crowd is something I dislike. It doesn't matter if the crowd is doing something right today, tommorrow it could just as easily do something wrong. I've never said anything that contradicted that, nor have I said that the causes that crowds fight for are all inherently bad. Those are INFERRED, and they are drawn out of thin air. My subconscious isn't telling me I'm wrong, or something to that effect. Nor have I ever said any of these:I think discrimination against gays is wrong,
but
..." or "I think rape in any context is wrong, and rapists should always be punished,
but
...Usually I say these things, and then explain how they have nothing to do with my other position on the matter. Why must I? Because people will always infer something I don't mean. So I believe that women should dress modestly? That must mean I excuse rapists right? Well, no. So I believe that homosexuality is a sin? That must mean I think homosexuals shouldn't have equal rights. Well, no. I'm simply fending off the false dichotomies that are so prevalent in these discussions. That doesn't mean I'm conflicted, it just means I don't subscribe to either extreme.
You know, there is a flip side to this coin. So often, the "other" side of these conflicts issue their own false dichotomies. They should look familiar to you. Also note how I never assert them:
You hate the institution of marriage if you want homosexuals to be able to marry.
You think all men are evil if you believe in women's rights.
You side with terrorists if you don't support the war in Iraq.
These things always seemed so contrived to me, so I always find what I believe to be right, and often times that means I have to say "I don't believe this BUT I also don't believe this". That position doesn't come from some sort of confusion about myself. And I also hate it when people assert that "If you don't believe this YOU MUST believe this", which is what is going on here.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
MyTie the only reason you brought it up was because you were trying to downplay racism. The discussion wasn't about whether or not following the crowd is a good thing, it was about racism. You started saying that being sensitive about racism is "trendy," the implication being that people are overly sensitive about racism, not because they are genuinely offended, but because they are trying to be trendy.
That's what you've been being called out on, not the idea that people shouldn't follow the crowd.
Post by
MyTie
MyTie the only reason you brought it up was because you were trying to downplay racism. The discussion wasn't about whether or not following the crowd is a good thing, it was about racism. You started saying that being sensitive about racism is "trendy," the implication being that people are overly sensitive about racism, not because they are genuinely offended, but because they are trying to be trendy.
That's what you've been being called out on, not the idea that people shouldn't follow the crowd.
Well, I highly disagree that is what you guys are talking about. But, there are some people that ARE overly sensitive to racism,who see racism behind everything. Again, this isn't to say that when racism exists, it is a excusable, but I asserted that there are people who are ultra sensitive to racism, when the situation they are in has no need for it. If you think that is an indefensible claim, I'll be happy to spend a few minutes googleing for you. I think I'd start with something like
Cynthia McKinney
and go from there.You are literally making things up here. Only thing that has been said is that we (or I) think that following a group can be a good thing, and you think it's most likely dishonest. The only reason you think anyone thinks anything else is because I said we shouldn't make it about something other than what it started out being, aka not about genocide. No one said anything about you being against the civil rights movement, only that you were against crowd mentality and we asked if it's not a good thing when it's for a good cause.
Why are you fighting when there is nothing to fight over...
Allow me to illustrate:
Why is it that you, Elura, think something is a good thing to fight for just because one is following the crowd? So every time the crowd picks on a homosexual, you think they are right? When the German people hated the Jews, as a crowd, you think that was the right thing to do? You can't tell me you DON'T believe them, because what you said was so close to this, that I simply inferred the rest, and there is no denying it.
This is the method you employ when debating me. I can easily employ it back at you. Well, I could, but I wouldn't retain an ounce of self respect.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
When did I do that in this debate?
When I suggested that following the crowd, for the simple reason of following the crowd wasn't something I found to be good, you inferred that it meant:
1) I disagreed with causes like the civil rights, because I believed that people did follow that crowd.the civil rights movement as an example of something that involved what you thought was bad
2) All people who are in a crowd are in it simply because it is a crowd.Following the crowd doesn't mean you don't agree with what the crowd is saying.
I would also prefer it if you didn't call me "sweetheart" or "hun" or any pet names. I find it patronizing.
Post by
Sagramor
I said "more civilized" in comparison to our ancient ancestors. As in having a higher degree of civility, as a society. I never said it was complete, or any kind of final step.
I understood very well what you said the first time, then.
You're trying too hard.
This just makes me sad.
He actually talks like that in everyday conversations. It's really weird.
This just makes me...happy?
All of this aside, you contradict your earlier posts. You admit that nobody is without societal, outside influence, yet earlier you were saying that somebody who makes their own opinions without following trends somehow has more integrity than those who do something because it's "trendy".
There is no such thing as an opinion formed outside the influence of societal trends. And a trend like being sensitive about racism is hardly a step in the wrong direction, so I fail to see what your issue with it is.
You have to see there is a difference between believing in something solely because it is the opinion of the majority, or because it is considered by the norm to be "cool" - to "jump on the bandwagon", as was said earlier - and believing in something after having rationally and critically thought it out, with an attempt at objectivity (which, yes, theoretically, can never be achieved), and to distance oneself from irrationalities, like jumping on bandwagons. Which is, by the way, a bad decision both figuratively and literally.
Post by
240140
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sagramor
For a lot of people, it was. There were some leaders, there were some participators, and the rest was crowd mentality. You cannot honestly think that suddenly a nation spontaneously grew up.
I don't want to get caught between Chelsea and MyTie, because for some reason you really don't get along, but come one, MyTie, there were years and years of build up to the Civil Rights movement. Spontaneously? Pick up a book, dude.
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