This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Feral hit
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
382303
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DrDrako
or you could just check the FAQ...
it's got all that, with the exception of a good dps gear list. but.. its not like wowhead is a database website or anything, not like it has a fully customizable search engine for gear. no no. what am i thinking.
personally. i prefer reaching the hit cap. i play with moderate fps and ms. (yes, dsl ftl) so in order to keep up my rotations, i need to make sure that i waste as little time as possible. i.e. make sure my hits hit.
as for expertise, i find it harder to cap since all the gear i've been getting for dps is more rogue-oriented. 336 passive haste ftl. >.>
Post by
grezgorz
Most of your damage will come from yellow attacks. This damage isn't really limited by hit or exp rating but only by your energy regeneration. Even when missing a lot of attacks you will use your energy faster then it regenerates so in the end you will not lose a single point of yellow damage. That is why agil/arpen are mathematically superior to hit/exp for Druid dps.
The first sentence is correct. After that it all goes wrong.
Yellow damage IS affected by 8% for hit and 6.5% for exp (behind). How can you say it 'isn't really limited by hit or exp rating'? Hello? If you can't see that there's not much hope for you.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Which would you prefer in your raid; the dps who hits 6kdps every fight, or the dps who gets between 5-7k every fight? (numbers made up to illustrate my point)
Just to make your numbers possibly a bit more accurate, you might wanna say
Which would you prefer in your raid; the dps who hits 6kdps every fight, or the dps who gets between
5.5 - 7k
every fight?
To illustrate that (as I think MegaVolt may have been trying to point out) that on an infinite timeline vs. a stationary boss, hit and expertise produce less DPS per point (according to pretty much all simulation tools), so the spiky guy would likely
average
more DPS than the hit/exp capped guy, though it may (and almost surely will) spike lower as you pointed out.
The difference in value in some calculators is pretty significant, even ones that fully simulate combo point generation rate, lost GCD's, and the small amount of lost energy. You can easily make the argument that bosses are not an infinite timeline, and are not always stationary, and therefore you're injecting so much RNG into the situation that it doesn't matter what the average is because the deviation will be so massive, on a finite timeline your DPS will fluctuate so massively that even if the average is higher, you may not notice it, or it may take many many attempts to realize this average. Or that the increased failure-rate causes you to mess up your rotation, therefore you're injecting un-simulated variables into the equation, so the simulation results supporting your decision to abandon Hit/Exp are no longer valid (i.e. Human error).
(e.g. it only takes a few 6-sided dice rolls to start to reach a numerical average near 3.0 -- It takes many many 100-sided dice rolls to reach a numerical average of 50.0, but you
will
eventually reach that average if the dice is fair and you roll it enough times. Hit/Exp are similar; if you can hold to the calculators assumptions for response time (instant) and error rate (0%), then you increase your
average
dps at the cost of more
deviation from average
(which is usually referred to as RNG) when you swap Hit for a
better
stat -- This is basically exactly what parrazell said, I just wanted to point out that the
net effect
should be an increase in
average
DPS if the player can conform to the parameters of the simulation.)
Edit: I meant to point out that in surfing of EJ.com, there's a pretty large following of druids who think that if a miss every now and then screws up your rotation (to the point of hurting your DPS), then it's not the lack of Hit/Exp doing it -- it's your lack of
skill
in adapting to a non-guarantee situation. From this point of view, getting Hit/Exp capped appears more like the 'easy way out' than anything, where you're actually choosing less DPS in favor of ease of play (its not called ElitistJerks for nothing!). While I'm not necessarily saying I support this, I thought it was worth pointing out.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pelf
@Heckler's \ text: That is how I look at it. I will ensure I have enough hit to not have much more than 1% chance to miss by simple gear choice. If I do miss, I just notice it. It's very infrequent.
Post by
grezgorz
because when you miss with an attack you dont waste all of the emergy, some of it is recovered (80% or something I cant remember exactly). So in the time it takes for the GCD to occur you will have already recovered the energy that you did lose.
you are referring to the Primal Precision talent that refunds 80% of the energry of a FINISHING move.
A) not all yellow attacks are finishing moves. (most aren't)
B) if you were hit capped you never miss and if you have enough expertise on gear, you can put talent points elsewhere
So yes you will regenerate SOME of the lost energy but you still missed, you still wasted energy (and lost combo points, and a chance to proc 'chance on hit' effects) and you wasted time (which directly affects your dps). Also the benefit from haste is directly affected by hit/exp.
Obviously I prefer the higher dps which is why I want to be within 1% of hit-capped. The numbers I'm basing this on are not made up, which yours admittedly are.
@ Heckler
Being hit/exp capped doesn't have to do with a 'lack of skill' or an 'easy way out', it's just more of a realistic approach to raid dpsing. Heckler, your arguments sound more like you're justifying not being able to reach cap with your current gear than you are actually trying to prove that not being capped somehow provides better dps. Point taken though, your average dps over a long enough period of time will be very similar albeit 'spikier' if you forgo hit/exp for other similarly valued stats and it's difficult to say one kind of setup is 'better' than the other. It's more of a preference or personal style.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
grezgorz
So the point is that you only lose 20% of the energy when you miss... but you are using two talent points that could be spent elsewhere if were hit/exp capped, you still lose the time for the gcd, a chance to proc on hit effects, and the combo points that a hit would have generated are delayed until your next hit. You also are not fully benefiting from your haste until you are hit/exp capped...
The argument that hit/exp is for the unskilled is just bs. Part of your skill is ensuring that your gear setup will be successful and 'adapting your play to more misses' is usually not going to be the most successful approach. I certainly wouldn't consider it a more skilled approach.
Post by
Heckler
So the point is that you only lose 20% of the energy when you miss... but you are using two talent points that could be spent elsewhere if you're hit/exp capped
You ALWAYS only lose 20% of Combo Moves, this talent makes that apply to finishing moves as well. That point is moot howevere, I'll agree if you're >6.5% without this talent and you're hit capped as well then it is useless. But the 2 talent points allow you to choose a stat that is superior to Expertise to stack instead, resulting in a net gain in DPS.
you still lose the time for the gcd, a chance to proc on hit effects, and the combo points that a hit would have generated. You also are not fully benefiting from your haste until you are hit/exp capped...
All of these things are accounted for, basically the bottom line of the argument is, for a Combo move:
2
hits
generates
2 combo points
and deals
X damage
1 miss and 1 crit
generates
2 combo points
and deals
MORE THAN X damage
(due to talents).
Both use 2 GCDs, both generate the same number of combo points, the non-hit capped person deals more damage, so by swapping equal Hit% for Crit%, you GAIN dps.
This is the
basic
core of the "Hit/Exp is worth less than Agi" argument (The details are obviously more detailed than this).
Every
DPS simulation / calculator I've ever used or seen correlates this result (That is +1 Hit/Exp yields less DPS than +1 Agility). When it comes to white damage, it is safe to say that +X% Hit means +X% White DPS, but if it's at the cost of MORE THAN X Yellow damage then the net DPS change is negative. White damage is not a significant enough source of our damage for the swap to come out positive (If it were, the calculators would reflect this).
The argument that hit/exp is for the unskilled is just bs. Part of your skill is ensuring that your gear setup will be successful and 'adapting to more misses' is not always going to be the most successful approach.
BS?
Find me a source
with any sort of math that shows +1 Hit/Exp as superior to +1 Agility. If you want me to find you a source that says the opposite, I can -- But I think I'll let YOU find it on your own while you're looking for a source to back up your claims, because they are everywhere. This argument has been had so many times on so many forums, the end result is clear.
Hit is not worth as much as other stats at increasing DPS
. The reason people still get hit is simply because it reduces the deviation of your average DPS (as parrazell said, a constant 6k is better than a spiky 6.2k), and makes the rotation smoother and more predictable (among a few other RNG based arguments about movement).
Normally I'd put my source here, but I'm not the one who is challenging known data, so the burden of proof is on you. I will be surprised if in your search for a source to backup your claims, you don't find multiple sources that back up these.
Post by
grezgorz
When did I say hit/exp > agi?
I said other stats of similar value to hit/exp. I don't want to turn this into a thread of endless source-quoting... I think we're more or less in agreement here anyway.
Post by
Heckler
When did I say hit/exp > agi?
I said other stats of similar value to hit/exp. I don't want to turn this into a thread of endless source-quoting... I think we're in agreement here anyway.
If you agree with me that Hit and Exp are not the most valuable stats when not capped, then advocating stacking them anyways means you are advocating
trading dps for easier play
(or possibly sacrificing a potential 7k dps to guarantee 6k)-- This is why the EJ crowd usually implies that this is "choosing the easy way" because you're choosing the easy 6k instead of the hard 6.5k. Why would someone choose Easy over Hard when it easy means less DPS? Possibly because they don't feel they have the skill to pull off the Hard option?
So I'm not saying it means you're unskilled, and I never said that, all I said is that there is a crowd among the pros at EJ who DO imply this, and its tough to argue it.
If you want
my
opinion, there's exactly 2 reasons to cap yourself at the cost of DPS: You don't like wild deviations from average (as parazell said); or you don't think you have the skill to keep up with an awkward rotation that involves not only checking timers and GCDs, but also verifying hits (this is why I choose to put myself
near
both caps -- Yes, I stack hit precisely because I doubt my skills).
As far as me trying to make a fake point to justify that my gear isn't good enough to cap, look at my character profiles (They're all public, I don't try to hide my awfulness). I rarely raid, my gear is awful, I make no claims of greatness. I have no reason to try to make myself look better, and I don't hide the fact that all of my characters are (and always will be) noobly. I don't jump into the ePeen swinging threads boasting about my 7k DPS, because I don't do 7k DPS. The bottom line is: I never said that it meant you're unskilled, I said that EJ.com implies that constantly. That doesn't make it correct, and it doesn't mean I agree, I was simply relating something I read.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
OMG the 'trading dps for easier play' argument made me laugh:
L O L
You want arguments in favor of hit/expertise caps?
1. Razorscale phase 1, caught in the four harpoons, DPS burn phase. You have 5 CP, Razorscale is about to knock you back. You cast Rip. It misses / is dodged. All you are left with is 5CPs to use on Savage Roar and wait for trash to spawn from the ground. Bad.
2. XT-002. You have 5 CP. You get Light / Gravity Bomb. You want to Rip and run away. Rip misses. You either run away and miss many seconds of Rip or stay to try and apply it again, damaging your raid mates. Bad.
3. Ignis. 5CP -> Rip misses. You get Slag Pot. No DPS. Bad.
4. Iron Council. You have 5 CP. Death Rune. You cast Tip and run away. Rip misses. No DPS or risk of dying. Bad. You have 5 CP. Lightning Tendrils. You cast Rip and it misses. No DPS. Bad.
5. Kologarn. 5CP. You cast Rip, it misses. You are gripped by Kologarn. No DPS. Bad.
6. Auriaya. 5CP, Rip misses, you get feared. No DPS. Bad.
7. Hodir. Flash Freeze incoming, 5CP, Rip misses. No DPS or risk of dying. Bad.
8. Freya, phase 2, DPS burn. Bombs down. 5CP, Rip misses, no DPS or death. Bad.
9. Mimiron, phase 1. Overload incoming, 5CP, Rip misses. No DPS or death. Bad. Phase 3 - head. Head is pinned down, you have 5CP, Rip misses. Head flies back up, no DPS on head. Bad.
/yawn
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Right, so all of those arguments fit into what I said:
The reason people still get hit is simply because it reduces the deviation of your average DPS , and makes the rotation smoother and more predictable (among a few other RNG based arguments about movement ).
or...
1.) Consistent DPS is good.
2.) Fights where DPS is interrupted by movement are not accounted for by simulations.
These are very good arguments that exactly counter the 'skill' comments at EJ, and I'm glad you brought them up because as I had pointed out earlier, they were hard for me to argue (I've only done #2, 4, and 5 on your list Aadr). Although I still think my ultimate goal will be a +Hit of 6.xx% and a +Exp of 6.xx%, assuming I have at least a draenei around will put my failure rate at less than 1% and prevent me from wasting stats -- but I think thats what most people already do anyways.
Its so hard to point out someone else's criticisms without having the credit for them pinned on yourself. This is just like the Defense Rating discussions where everyone assumes that because I say DefRat isn't worthless, that I'm telling people to stack it over Agility -- Hardly.
In this case, most of my insistence on the point was driven by what seemed to me like blind ignorance of fact on the part of grezgorz. I completely agree with parra's reasons for capping, pelf's reasons for not-quite-capping, and Aadr's reasons for capping -- the thing is, none of Your guys' reasons try to use the argument that Hit/Exp are
better
than the other stats, but instead that they are necessary to enough situations that its worth losing a little Patchwerk-style DPS in order to keep your all-around average DPS potential up, and this makes them the proper choice.
But the conversation is still worth having, because there's plenty of people (like grezgorz) out there who don't understand the
reasons
Hit/Exp are important at all. The GCD/Energy/Combo Point argument he and others always try to make is proof of this.
I'm not saying
don't get hit/expertise
, I never have been. I have lots of +Hit and lots of +Exp (as pointed out earler, about as much as my gear level allows), and I plan on getting more -- You guys are the pros and I listen to you, but I'm just prodding the discussion -- I love getting the pros opinions on matters that I've read in other sources that seem to counter common wowhead opinion.
Holy crap, you say
unskilled
around here and everyone's head explodes =D lol.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Holy crap, you say unskilled around here and everyone's head explodes =D lol.This is bcoz we kitteh duridz iz skilled players to top DeePS met0rz, amirite? :D
Of course, comparing hit and expertise with stats like agility or armor penetration rating, you may find that, for instance, if you drop from 8% to 7% hit and in exchange you get, say, 35 more agility, it is an overall gain in DPS. Very small, but a gain. Mathematically speaking. And that 1% miss chance is acceptable under the circumstances. However the simple fact that hit and expertise caps allow a smooth DPS cycle makes them the priority stats in my book. Tweaks and fine tunings that happen around the 8% hit and 6.5% expertise thresholds are up to the player's own decision.
But still, if I said I would trade 1% hit (getting from 8% to 7%) for 30 agility, that doesn't mean I would trade all the 8% hit (from 8% to 0%) in favor of 240 agility. +3% crit and +280 AP will not make up for the 8% miss chance.
Here's the math with a famous DPS calculator, Toskk - I used my own stats for realistic simulation:
1.
STATS
(7.84% hit, 5.5% expertise) < -- >
DPS
(4719)
2.
STATS - no hit, no expertise, both replaced with agility
< -- >
DPS
(4616)
103 DPS loss if all hit and expertise was replaced with agility. a 2.2% decrease, very small, but still a decrease. But this is ON A MATHEMATICAL MODEL. In practice, it will be LOWER. Precisely because of those movement and hazard reasons.
This is my point.
/roar
Post by
Heckler
Thank you for a math based reply Aadr, it is truly appreciated, however, Toskk's calculator requires an input Attack Power value from your Cat Form screen, unbuffed, this means you should have also added 358 AP to your original value for Attack Power.
I've reproduced your example with the above correction made, since I can't be sure of which buffs you selected, my DPS values will be different, results:
Original: 4084 DPS
All Agi: 4122 DPS
Now it actually shows a 0.9%
increase.
I would like to see how your actual setup varies with the addition of 358 AP. I still agree that it would be unwise to forsake all hit / exp for agility, but it is truly difficult to find a simulation / model / calculator that will correlate this.
Edit, Side note: On my example above, I did not select the Blessing of Kings buff. If I had, the result would be even more severe, 4122 becomes 4256 -- since Agi is affected by Kings and Hit / Exp are not.
LATE EDIT:
Since Toskk's also assumes you have Imp. MotW and SotF, you should actually be adding 387 Agi / AP, not 358 since if you actually took 358 +Hit/+Exp out, and put 358 Agility in, your Char screen values of Agility and AP would actually increase by 358 * 1.06 * 1.02 =
387
, resulting in an even larger margin of increase.
EXTREMELY LATE EDIT
: Again, since Toskk's assumes you have 5/5 HotW, you also need to bump the AP figure by 10%. meaning Agility should increase by 387 and AP by 426. Using my original example the All Agi number becomes 4154 DPS (+1.7%). Also, my Note about Kings is invalid because I did not include Kings in the original 4084 calculation. With Kings: Original = 4195 All Agi = 4291 (+2.3%)
Post by
pelf
2.) Fights where DPS is interrupted by movement are not accounted for by simulations.
Nightcrowler's FBN simulator (not the addon, the C++ code) actually
does
attempt to simulate movement and variable DPS time. That's part of why I trust his code more than some of the others which are more models than simulations.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.