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Pures vs Hybrids
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Post by
187275
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Post by
Rubendesmet619
I see only one pure clas that has any right to complainen and that are hunters(they got buffed already).
Rogues are topping the meters, low utility but there DPS is unparalel.
Mages and locks top the meters on every casterfriendly encounter.
Dk's and ferals are to high atm and ARE getting a nerf.
Everything is fine, raids are as balanced as they're gone get.
DPS brings what buffs these days? Indeed, barely any, almost everything gets covered by healers/tanks.
Hybrids to lower damage because they can respec to tank/healer/both.
To get hybrid DPS into raids they gave them buffs.
That's the way blizzard sees it.
The ammount of buffs sombody has has NOTHING to do with his DPS. Get that trough your thick skulls already.
If you lose on DPS to any hybrid as a rogue then sorry but then you need to L2P/spec/gear or al 3 together.
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307698
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303152
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Post by
Haxzor
I think these debates come from people comparing specs instead of class rarely do players see the BIG BIG BIG picture. I'll read why doesn't my Pally do the same damage as a Mage? When in reality what is being said is "Why doesn't a RET Pally out perform a Mage of ANY Spec..." Which is absurd... Often people compare 1/3 of a class to a whole of another.
I'll give an example. I'll compare a Druid vs a Hunter
The druid has three different resources to do combat (Energy, Rage, Mana BTW which are accessible in ANY spec OP IMO) and the ability to stealth. Also a Druid can farm herbs in his/her travel form (something some notice... and others don't) They have an instant cast flight and travel form.
A hunter does have increased speed like a druid, but he does not have the ability to farm while mounted on his flyer. Does not have stealth which can come in handy with farming/pvp/pve. But a hunter does have a pet and that benefit alone helps with a lot of quests,
Also a druid may choose to spec to tank/heal/dps(ranged and melee) and a hunter can only dps (ranged generally). The idea, is that when you look at the game experience as a whole AND the competition there can be for raid spots, to ensure that a hunter is on "even" ground the druid he should do more DPS... from a Lore-esque perspective the argument can be made as such.
A Druid is a master of nature and has chosen to learn many aspects of combat and magic. While a Hunters training has only been with ranged combat and he has not chosen to learn magic and healing because he wants to dedicate more time to mastering his skills. Where a druid has spread himself out and is effective he's not a pro combatant like a hunter who has dedicated ALL his time to killing.
From a practical perspective it is simple. If pure DPS classes are out DPS'd by hybrids... why bring a PURE DPS? But if PURE dps outdo hybrid classes that is ok. Because hybrids can do other things.
But then hybrids get pidgeon-holed into Tank/Healing.
Bringing back Vanilla WoW
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Post by
xaratherus
And since Mages, Hunters, Rogues and Warlocks just can choose one role I wouldn't mind letting ehm out-DPS a Warrior in PvE for example but I think Warrior and Death Knights should be the center of Tanking since they have 2 roles which one of ehm is taken up by the pure DPS-guys, and then it would come down that it would be only fair to let the Paladins and Druids get reduced DPS and Tanking abbilities because that's way more fair then letting a 2-role or 1-role class suffering from being less "OP"...
Hybrid classes "choose" a specific role to play in a raid. Granted that a Paladin/Druid does not have to level a second character in order to play multiple roles, but the point stands that a Paladin who is currently wearing tanking gear and sporting Protection talents cannot heal effectively. If you'd like to prove me wrong, go ahead and try - you'll be out of mana within 4 Holy Lights, and spamming Flash of Light isn't effective in many raid encounters.
The same is true for a Retribution Paladin: You have the option to use your Art or War procs to cast Flash of Light instantly, but doing so reduces your DPS since you're healing instead of casting - and your heals will be ineffective, which is why they're generally used for self-healing in emergencies.
So while Paladins can heal, DPS, or tank, a Paladin who attempts to do all of them at once will be successful at none of them. That means that the only difference between a "pure" class and a hybrid is that a "pure" must take the time to level an alternate character to fulfill a different role. Is that a time difference? Yes - but to me that doesn't equate to, "Tehy kan doo allz - n3rfrage!"
A final thought: Technically, Warriors and Death Knights are hybrid classes as well; they have the option of fulfilling a tanking or a DPS role within a raid group by switching specs and gear. By your argument then, Warriors and Death Knights should also be sub-par to "pure" DPS classes such as Mages and Rogues - and
all
tank classes should be gimped because there is no such thing as a "pure" tanking class.
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242691
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303152
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Post by
xaratherus
By trying to make your point, you pointed out the EXACT reason that pures should always be able to do a little more DPS.
And you completely overlooked the opposite side of the coin: If Mages can do 10-20% more DPS than, say, a Ret Paladin, what is the point of bringing a Ret Paladin at all? They will do less DPS than the Mage, and if they attempt to do anything else while they are DPSing - say, tossing out Holy Lights on the tank - they go OOM in about 4 casts. You've now exchanged a sub-par DPS for 10 seconds of sub-par heals and an OOM, useless toon in the raid.
I'm really not exaggerating here all that much. When I'm on my Prot Paladin in Naxx, if I try to do much other than stand around and beat on Kel'Thuzad during Phase 2 - say, help out with healing - then I risk going OOM and being completely ineffective at picking up adds in Phase 3.
My main is a Shaman. My main spec is Resto, but for a little while there, I was getting bored with healing, so I wanted to DPS a little. Rather than level up my lvl 70 Rogue, then run heroic, after heroic, followed by tons of Naxx just to be able to DPS, I made up an Elemental spec, and went on my merry way (since I had already gathered enough gear from off-spec rolls).
I had NO need to log 80 new levels on a different character (or 10 on my rogue), to be able to be an active raiding member... For that fact alone, I think that I should have to sacrafice SOMETHING to those people that do not have that kind of flexibility.
I don't get why people don't understand this. With flexibility comes sacrafice, just because some people choose not to take advantage of that flexibility does not mean that there shouldn't be that sacrafice.
I do take advantage of the flexibility. I have both dual spec on both my level 80 Paladin and Shaman. I still don't think that means that "pure" DPS should have more than the current supposed 5% advantage over hybrids, because to do so makes it semi-useless to bring a hybrid DPS spec to a raid.
As a Shaman player yourself: If you were to lead raid and had a choice between a Shaman doing X DPS and a Mage doing X + 20% DPS, and you only had one spot left, which would you choose (assuming that you already had Shaman totems and Mage buffs, thus negating everything
but
their DPS output)? In my mind, the Mage would get a summon, and the Shaman would get told to respec to healing and sign up for next week's raid.
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242691
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Post by
anywherenotes
And you completely overlooked the opposite side of the coin: If Mages can do 10-20% more DPS than, say, a Ret Paladin,
As a Shaman player yourself: If you were to lead raid and had a choice between a Shaman doing X DPS and a Mage doing X + 20% DPS, and you only had one spot left, which would you choose (assuming that you already had Shaman totems and Mage buffs, thus negating everything
but
their DPS output)? In my mind, the Mage would get a summon, and the Shaman would get told to respec to healing and sign up for next week's raid.
Yeah, but you cannot make a point based of incorrect numbers and assumptions. Who the heck is talking about 20% more DPS? Sure, if pures always did 20% more DPS, then of course you wouldn't bring the hybrid. Did you pick out the one or two fights where rets are doing 20% more DPS? If there actaully was an overall problem where one class was AVERAGING 20% more DPS, that is something that Blizz did not inted and will lead to nerfs.
Hell, by looking at wowmeters online, there are only a couple of gimmick fights where Rets are underperforming by that large of a margin, and there are just as many fights where rets are outperforming the pures.
So sorry, you can't build your argument on false accusations and assumptions.
But see, that's really not the worst case scenario for a hybrid. Lets think about a 10 man. You need 2 tanks and 3 healers (I'm not discussing running hard modes or when you overgear instance here). So that's 5 spots. Mages can't tank or heal, so lets say you end up with: tank warrior, tank DK, holy priest, holy paladin, resto shaman.
Now you got 5 spots open after getting all the necessary pieces for the raid to function (tanks and healers). So out of the 5 spots, if you want to maximize your buffs and/or class variety, well guess what, you wont' bring any of the same classes which are fulfilling tanking/healing roles.
That means you won't bring any dps shamans, dk's, warriors, priests or paladins.
Now ... if added on top of that, shamans do less dps than mages ... and you already got a shaman healer that can pop heroism ... what do you need another shaman for?
And lets not forget mages are loved by healers for free food, locks are loved for SS, hunters for MD, and rogues ... well who can't love a back-stabbing invisible ... ok lets forget about rogues.
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