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Hybrid Whining
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Post by
Masoj
EDIT: Likewise, if a mage doesn't do the highest DPS as , do you tell them to go respec? The fact that my other specs change my role should be irrelevant.
Yes you tell him to go spec differently so he will do more dps (ever seen a raiding frost mage) !
Post by
398333
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Post by
205531
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Post by
Synectics
And I actually
did
roll my druid because the guild requested I heal. I gave up my first 60, a rogue, to become a full time healer. I think the whole "it's just a game" argument is a bit tired. Either you're a team player or you're not, and I can't help be conclude that frighteningly few of you have ever played a team sport.
Wow... well, as long as you have fun, I suppose. If someone told me I needed to do <blank> instead of <blank>, I'd LOL and move along.
I do have a Priest that's fully spec'd and geared to heal. I rolled my Paladin to DPS. So, since I can't fill a tank spot with a character, I NEED to have my Paladin spec as Prot? Sorry, I don't buy into that. If I
want
to fill <insert role here>, I will. If a raid doesn't need that, then that's fine -- I will wait my turn and have fun doing something else in the meantime, or (CRAZY THOUGHT) find a different raid to join. And if a "pure" DPS gets upset that I haven't spent time to get another set of gear and respec, tough cookies; they can go roll a new character to fill that role if they're that upset about it. Meanwhile, I'll either heal or DPS, and have fun doing it because it's what I chose to do.
I'm not being "stubborn" about my class. I'm just not giving in to people who are being "stupid" about a
team sport
video game.
Post by
Squishalot
Sorry sayshina, but Synectics is absolutely right, team sport or not.
If you're a striker in football, and someone asks you to 'respec' or 'reroll' to goalkeeper, you'll just laugh and find yourself another club. It's not what you came to do, and it's incredibly rude of the rest of the team to insist that you should be doing anything that you don't want to.
If it's about doing some research before coming into a raid, so you know tactics, strategy, etc, that would fall under the 'you need to do this or you're not a team player'. But bl00dy hell, if you're going to completely change the way you play, and start doing something that you don't enjoy just because your guild needs a healer, then gawd, you've got more problems in your life than the fact that you're not allowed to be Ret.
Post by
daboss40
The only problem I have with the whole pure vs hybrid argument is that It undermines what Blizzard has been claiming all along: "Bring the player, not the class."
Granted 5% is not a huge gap, but when a raid leader needs one more dps to fill out a raid, and the two options are me and a hunter. Regardless of our actually gear and skill, the hunter will get the spot. This is for a few reason:
1)
Giving us "higher" utility and "lower" dps makes us a necessity, but only in very small numbers.
For example, it only takes one ret pally to bring 3% damage, and it only takes 3 pallies to bring all the blessings you really need. After that number, there's no real reason to take us over a pure dps. If the group has competent tank and healers, and there are already paladin's there. We lose LOTS of value to a raid. Unlike pure dps who still have value if theres 2 others of the kind there. Why bring a ret if they are
only
going to provide 5% less dps than a pure dps? Why not just bring another pure dps?
2) Really,
who knows the difference between level 213/219/226 gear on classes that they don't play?
If you take a ret pally, and a pure dps and compare the gear side by side, unless you play one of the classes, you'd be hard pressed to find a difference. Add that to the fact that he has no real way of differentiating our skill except for achievements, which can be had even if you have no idea what you're doing. My point is, all the raid leader has as fact is that pure dps typically do 5% more damage than a hybrid. All it takes is that perception of hybrid dps to get the RL to choose the pure.
All I'm saying is that in order for us t be viable at the very high end, we need to be seen as equals at our primary focus-
damage dealing
. If not, we will only be in raids for our utility, which is how it is now, once those roles are filled (all it takes is one ret pally), we become FAR less meaningful.
Post by
262937
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
The only problem I have with the whole pure vs hybrid argument is that It undermines what Blizzard has been claiming all along: "Bring the player, not the class."
Granted 5% is not a huge gap, but when a raid leader needs one more dps to fill out a raid, and the two options are me and a hunter. Regardless of our actually gear and skill, the hunter will get the spot.
...
All I'm saying is that in order for us t be viable at the very high end, we need to be seen as equals at our primary focus- damage dealing. If not, we will only be in raids for our utility, which is how it is now, once those roles are filled (all it takes is one ret pally), we become FAR less meaningful.
Very good points.
I have always seen utility as a fair trade for lower DPS -- I've played my Priest as Shadow, so I know how it is to be needed for that 3% extra hit and being a mana battery, but never because of my DPS. I've never thought of the fact that once you have one SPriest... you don't really need any more, and filling the rest of the raid with "pure" DPS classes seems to be the direction we're forced into.
I agree; however, Paladins do offer far more utility than just blessings and, in Ret's case, the 3% crit. We also offer LoH, party bubble, Divine Sacrifice if spec'd, Divine Shield, DI... all of these things can be brought by multiple paladins. It's important to note that a lot of our utility -- as in, non-DPS abilities -- can be offered by multiple paladins.
That said, you're completely right -- the fact that a "pure" DPS will be chosen over us is not fair. Yes, I typed it, and pretend I typed it in a whiny 12-year-old voice -- IT'S NOT FAIR! QQ.
Post by
Rouen
A mage cannot dual spec to be a tank and a healer (such as my pally is, even if his heal gear sorta sucks alittle). A mage can spec to tailor there DPS to a game play type.
As in a mage can spec frost and they do dps well in pvp, a mage can spec fire (or FFB) and do good in PvE DPS, or they could then spec Arcane for more mana control which is sort of a generalist spec.
Now tell me why should you out raid dps a fire spec mage, a pure DPS class that has put every ounce of possible effort into doing his best possible raid dps! While you are a generalist DPS, I could see ret on par with maybe arcane or frost in a raid type setting (both of which lose DPS to fire but bring more support just like a ret amazingly).
Can you give me a good answer as to why a hybrid should beat a pure class (when the pure is specced correctly). Hell this even applies to warriors and DKs while they may not be truely pure classes they most definitely have "tank, pvp, and pve". Why should a generalist Ret, be able to out pve dps a warrior who is specced for pve dps?
This is the difference, that you seem to fail to grasp. Your DPS is generalized, yes you are DPS but you are specced to any sort of particular DPS. While these other classes can, why should they even have multiple options if every one is matched or beaten by your single general setup?
Wow... someone finally gets it. This is what I've been trying to say the entire time LOL.
Grats DunNa for explaining it better then I could.
Edit: Below...
For example, I honestly feel a class such as a Rogue should easily lead the DPS meters. They bring nothing at all to help and benefit the entire raid -- you bring a Rogue because you want extremely high single-target DPS. But on the flipside, a Shadow Priest will never lead the DPS meters, but they offer so much health and mana regeneration, along with debuffs, that they are very useful.
There are fights where having a rogue can be vital. Oh, the many times I wish our 10 man had a rogue on Kel'Thazud or General Vezax to interrupt Frostbolt/Searing Flames every time and without worry. Yes yes a warrior can do the same but you might not always have a warrior in the raid.
As for the shadow priest... I pull about 5k DPS with my mage on single target boss fights and I am typically #1 in the raid for DPS and if I am not #1, I'm in the top 3. There is a shadow priest in our guild that consistantly meets or beats my DPS (sometimes exceeding 5k). Priests are like warriors in the way that they are only partial hybrids. Priests can heal or DPS, just as a warrior can only tank or DPS. I don't view them as full hybrids like a druid or a pally and therefore (and obviously blizzard feels the same because thats how it is in game) shouldn't really have their DPS gimped (or gimped as much). There's only one warrior I know that can meet or beat my DPS consistantly on my server, but he's also completely decked out in BiS gear while I'm still getting there. Side Note: He is VERY good at PvE and PvP, exceeding the 2300 in arena rating considering that he's duel wielding two furious weapons as of now.
Post by
Synectics
There are fights where having a rogue can be vital. Oh, the many times I wish our 10 man had a rogue on Kel'Thazud or General Vezax to interrupt Frostbolt/Searing Flames every time and without worry. Yes yes a warrior can do the same but you might not always have a warrior in the raid.
And you might not always have a mage, either. So why gimp the DPS that we DO have? To say that "pure" DPS should always do more DPS means, as daboss40 pointed out, that they will
always
be more valuable than a "hybrid" in their DPS spec if you're looking for DPS.
I pull about 5k DPS with my mage on single target boss fights and I am typically #1 in the raid for DPS and if I am not #1, I'm in the top 3. There is a shadow priest in our guild that consistantly meets or beats my DPS (sometimes exceeding 5k).
But he
could
have been a healer! You should be doing at
LEAST
2% more DPS than him!
There's only one warrior I know that can meet or beat my DPS consistantly on my server, but he's also completely decked out in BiS gear while I'm still getting there.
So you're saying that someone in BiS gear, out-gearing you and very clearly being a top player of his class, shouldn't do more DPS than you because one of his specs isn't DPS? That once you have an equal set of gear, that you should do more? Doesn't this at ALL strike you as stupid? He is clearly a DPS'er. He's good at what he does. He's dedicated a lot of time and effort and practice to perfect what he likes to play. Why in the hell should you be able to do better than him just because he
COULD
have been a tank? "Bring the player, not the class" seems to be turning into, "
Bring the player that's the right class
."
Post by
daboss40
Can you give me a good answer as to why a hybrid should beat a pure class (when the pure is specced correctly).
See my above post. I gave 2.
1) "Utility" is a Luxury. "DPS" is a necessity. You can still step in raids with less blessings or no wipe protection. You cannot win a raid with insufficient DPS. it doesn't get any easier to understand than that.
2) The general perception that Pure DPS > Hybrid DPS will influence your typical raid leader towards picking a pure dps if thats all he has to go on. An example of this is if the RL of a pug sees a hunter and a ret pally. If he doesn't know how to spot a good hunter/ret from a bad one, he will go with the hunter because all he really knows is that blizz designed ret < hunter.
Allow me to tackle all the complaints of Pure DPS specs right now:
- Ret Palas cannot tank. At all. Get it out of your minds.
- Sure we have auras, but all you need is one ret to bring that. Then it is useless.
- Sure we can throw a heal, at the cost of tremendously lowered dps and mana efficiency.
- Sure we can bubble, but all that does 95% of the time is KILL your DPS and prolong your death by 12 seconds.
- Sure we can DI, but I'd rather take 5% more DPS than a 30 shorter run back.
- Sure we can bless, but after 3 paladins (including healers and tanks), it's useless.
Let me sum this up in one easy to read sentence:
Assumming you are in a raid with semi-competent healers and tanks, and you already have three paladins there (including a ret paladin), it actually becomes a BAD idea to bring a ret paladin...
Let me Edit this to make it more clear:
... However, if all buffs are covered (same situation as described above), it is NEVER a bad idea to invite a pure DPS...
Think about it...
Post by
Rouen
But he could have been a healer! You should be doing at LEAST 2% more DPS than him!
This is just mockery. I've already made my point and your omiting what I stated earlier.
Don't QQ because this is the why blizzard has intended it and believe that I'm somehow in the wrong because in this case blizzard actually makes a little sense. I'm done with this subject since the concept seems to be beyond a number of folks' ability to comprehend. Moving on to a more meaningful and constructive subject...
PS: Post all of this up on the official WoW forums and see if you can get a blue post in response and link it here on WoWhead. Chances are they will give you the same arguement I (Edit: And other folks) have presented.
Post by
299926
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
But he could have been a healer! You should be doing at LEAST 2% more DPS than him!This is just mockery. I've already made my point and your omiting what I stated earlier.
Damn right it's mockery, but it's not untrue. By your logic, because they have the possibility of another role, their DPS shouldn't be as high. That's what you've stated, put into one sentence.
If you're done skimming through my reasoning, and are now simply scrolling past my (valid) arguments just to respond, then fine -- by this point, I do sound like a broken record, even I admit that. But don't skip by daboss40's very sound logic above; I'm apparently not the only one who is thinking long and hard about the subject.
Don't QQ because this is the why blizzard has intended it and believe that I'm somehow in the wrong because in this case blizzard actually makes a little sense. I'm done with this subject since the concept seems to be beyond a number of folks' ability to comprehend. Moving on to a more meaningful and constructive subject...
Again, I understand your argument, and I understand that at the moment, Blizz and GC are pushing this. I've said that. And I've also said I DISAGREE, and have stated WHY. This isn't me going "IT'S NOT LIKE THAT," it's me stating my opinion that it SHOULDN'T be like that. Though, I do agree, I'm getting sick of this discussion just as much; if I remembered who the OP was, I'd kick them in the ass for ever bringing it up. XD
Post by
205531
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
A ret paladin offers 3% crit, 3% haste, 3% damage, an improved Ret aura, an extra Blessing, various forms of damage mitigation both for himself and others, wipe prevention and 'emergency' abilities, and the ability, if required, to fill out a tank or healer spot if such is required for that fight, on top of the role they offer in DPS.
Yes and no. Yes, that's what they offer, in the first half of that sentance. No, they don't offer the ability to fill out a tank or healer role. Have you ever seen a Ret healer? Or a Ret tank? Even if they happen to have the gearset on hand, unless he's way above overgeared, a Ret tank won't last more than half a minute, even as just an add off-tank.
Conclusion: A Ret Paladin offers DPS and utility, but not the ability to respec for a particular fight. Hearthing to Dalaran, portal to IF/Silvermoon and respec'ing each battle doesn't sound particularly appealing, to me.
Anyone can top a meter if they're good enough and well versed with the mechanics of both their class and a given fight.
This sounds like a Hallmark card - "Anyone can be the very best, even you!" Unfortunately, with a healthy dose of cynicism, we realise that only one person can be the best, by definition. Only one person can top the meters, by definition, unless by some freak of nature, more than one player somehow manages to get exactly the same DPS/HPS. The problem is, Blizzard has tried to make it so that if you take the 'best' Paladin and the 'best' Rogue, that the Rogue will be able to output a higher DPS in each and every fight. Which leads on to the next point...
This means that, once the 'essential' buffs are sorted out (and it only takes ~13 people to do that), you can bring your best players, regardless of class.
So once you have a single Ret paladin, you no longer have a need to bring another Ret paladin. How do you define the 'best players, regardless of class'? The ones who can produce the highest DPS (and who know the fight mechanics). Don't you think it's somewhat tragic if you have the top 15 players of each class, and you end up choosing 12 Rogues and Mages to fill out your party, just because they produce the highest DPS?
If you were designing an optimal group, why wouldn't you do otherwise? The only saving grace for Ret DPS at the moment is the fact that there are so many Huntards out there (and equivalents in other classes - look at DKs for example) who let down their class. But if two players have equivalent skill, it still seems unfair that one person will almost always be kept out of raiding, just because he's a Paladin and the other is a Rogue.
Post by
178407
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Post by
262937
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
So by your logic, a better player (gear/play style) who plays a hybrid class should do less dps than someone who is less geared or worse at playing? You are implying that hybrids are in raids just because of their utility and not their dps, even if they are dps specced/oriented.
I think he's saying that an equivalently geared/skilled Ret pally should do less, because of their utility. So the first statement isn't really fair.
The second statement is very fair though. But I guess, turn it around another way, you could say that Paladins can be Healer, Tank or Utility spec, as opposed to DPS spec. That wouldn't be too far from the truth?
The argument doesn't help Warriors though...
They can also save a healer a cool down, and even use shield wall and pick up an untanked boss (which is baseline ffs) in order to give the raid enough time to recover from a tank death, or zerg down the boss's hp.
If a Ret pally is saving the healer a cooldown, then the healers are fail. If a tank dies and a Ret pally picks up the boss, then the Ret will die in about 10 seconds, probably less, bubblewall or not. If a Ret pally can zerg down a boss's health, then they're just doing their job, not in excess of their job, despite the fact that other classes do it better at the moment.
Post by
205531
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