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Hybrid Whining
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Post by
Synectics
No, a pally can tank and heal. You are just saying you can't. Its not a game design issue you are willfully neglecting abilities given to you.
No, a PROTECTION Paladin can tank, and a HOLY Paladin can heal. A RETRIBUTION Paladin cannot fill either of these roles. Again, there is no "hybrid" spot in a raid -- only tanking, healing, and DPSing.
Now tell me why should you out raid dps a fire spec mage, a pure DPS class that has put every ounce of possible effort into doing his best possible raid dps!
That's a bit offensive; I put just as much damn effort into bringing my best DPS to a raid. I went and got the gear, I've studied every bit that I can of my abilities, and I come with a SRS face ready to do SRS BIZ.
Note, however, that I have stated REPEATEDLY that a Ret Paladin
should not be at the top of the meters
-- we bring a lot of utility, again, akin to a Shadow Priest, and on such basis, our DPS should be balanced to reflect what we bring to the raid as a whole. In "usefulness," we should match a pure DPS class.
For example, I honestly feel a class such as a Rogue should easily lead the DPS meters. They bring nothing at all to help and benefit the entire raid -- you bring a Rogue because you want extremely high single-target DPS. But on the flipside, a Shadow Priest will never lead the DPS meters, but they offer so much health and mana regeneration, along with debuffs, that they are
very
useful.
Again, I'm not trying to argue that Ret Paladins should be at the top of the DPS meters, easily passing these "pure" DPS classes. But it's not because we
could
be another role. It's because we offer utility.
Post by
228908
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299926
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Post by
Synectics
All I can say is you better be pulling elite fricken dps if you're that stubborn about your spec.
What about a Warrior? If he doesn't do the best DPS, do you tell him to go respec to Prot?
EDIT: Likewise, if a mage doesn't do the highest DPS as , do you tell them to go respec? The fact that my other specs change my role should be irrelevant.
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228908
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299926
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Post by
Synectics
No, it's the fact that you don't seem to care that you can do other things to help a raid succeed.
So if you're going to pigeonhole yourself into only doing DPS, you better be damned good at it.
Just like a rogue...if he's not topping the charts or close to it...why bother?
Get someone who can do crappy dps and bring something else to the table.
I do care about succeeding. That's why I bring my A-game and play my spec very well.
Sounds like you just proved my point. If I'm coming as a DPS, why shouldn't I have a shot at topping the meters if I have spent the time to get the gear, learn the class, and play it well? Or, in a Ret Pally or Shadow Priest's case, the fact that I offer so much utility and extra survivability to the raid? I shouldn't have to grind out multiple sets of gear, spending triple the time gearing up as a DPS, learning two completely different playstyles, just to justify my spot in a raid. That's just asinine, and if it came to that, I wouldn't be raiding.
EDIT: Clarifying.
Post by
228908
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Post by
Synectics
No, you're still missing the point that you are limited by your choices, not class/spec design.
Rets still do very well, but no rogue or mage or hunter can step in, press a button, and completely change what he brings to a raid.
If you deliberately choose not to take advantage of this ability of your class, then you are limiting yourself.
The bonus to the class is there, you don't get to say, "hey blizz I don't want to use what you gave me
so let me top damage meters instead.
"
I'll repeat -- I've never once said that Ret Paladins should lead the DPS meters.
The bonus is that I would have to grind out multiple sets of gear, pay for respec's / dual-spec, and learn a completely different playstyle. Sounds wonderful, I'll get right to it.
Again, by this logic, a Warrior should have to carry around a tank spec and always know how to tank, and on top of that, he's not allowed to do as much DPS as the "pure" DPS classes. Likewise with Death Knights -- they should always know how to tank as well as DPS, have separate gear for both, but never be good at either.
You're trying to say that because our class can be multiple roles, we should always be willing to fill another role other than the one we want to. Sorry, I don't like that. Is that how the design is? Seems like it -- I agree. I have yet to be in a raid with a Paladin or Druid who hasn't had multiple specs (other than myself >.>), and indeed, it is very helpful if we lose someone and they need to fill the spot. But I don't agree that it should be like this. I have multiple 80's, for the very reason that I keep one as a healer and one as a DPS, and if a spot needs filled, I have no problem switching characters. I don't think my "hybrid" character should have to switch their role just to be viable.
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228908
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Post by
Squishalot
I've always considered any player of a class who can tank or heal and refuses to do so a bit of a tard. DPS is so easy, as well as easy to come by. Suck it up and do something a tiny bit more useful. Why on earth would you want to limit yourself to being just one more dps? When was the last time dps mattered anyway?
sayshina, there's a perfectly good reason. Pre 3.1, if you recall, you couldn't dual spec, you were essentially locked into one spec, unless you were a hardcore raider who had the funds and backing to respec every couple of nights. Simply because tanking and healing are more intensive than DPS'ing, it's natural that people won't want to, they don't want the stress, don't want the responsibility.
You can't be a casual tank. I've tried before. It's not pretty. You need to have a certain amount of dedication to the craft to be a good tank/healer, and for most people out there, it's not on.
I rolled a Pally not to tank or heal or dps. I rolled a Pally because I *wanted a Paladin*. As a result, that shouldn't open me up to criticism about being a tard, just because I don't want to heal, just because I can. So I'll play my way, and if a raid wants me, then so much the better. But if you think that anybody in the game is playing because of some sense of societal gratification, because they're playing for the benefit of the greater WoW universe and should therefore spec however the rest of the world wants them to, then your attitude is symptomatic of the selfishness that's stereotypical in the gamer world.
"I need you to reroll a Druid because we need a raid healer. Go on, it's not like you can't do that, don't be such a tard! <gkick>" <end extreme example>
Caean
, I think you (and all of us) are drifting away from the original point here.
The pure DPS classes are the ones complaining about how Ret DPS is comparable to theirs. I don't think any Ret paladin actually complains about not being top of the DPS charts - moreso, it's that Rogues and Mages complain when Rets beat them and cry about Pallys being OP and it not being fair etc etc.
The question we're trying to argue here is: "why should hybrid classes do less DPS than pure DPS classes?"
Nothing about utility. Nothing about choosing one over the other, just because the other can respec.
Purely, why should a Rogue or Mage do more DPS than a Paladin, simply on account of their class? And for no other reason?
DunNa makes the point that a Warrior who specs PvE DPS should do more than a Pally who has a general DPS spec. Yes, I think that's reasonable, and as I said before, classes with more than 1 DPS spec can change spec to customise for the particular fight. In that case, it makes perfect sense that they do more DPS than a general Ret spec.
Fact of the matter is though, very few people actually do that. They play a general DPS spec, just the same as we do. In doing so, they're gimping their own potential just as much as a 'pure Ret' pally. So really, they don't deserve to do any more than we do, no?
"As a cook, you could have chosen to specialise in French, Spanish or Chinese food. You're a French specialist, but I'm sorry, a French stir fry isn't going to be much better than that Paladin's Italian stir fry."
Post by
Synectics
I've always considered any player of a class who can tank or heal and refuses to do so a bit of a tard. DPS is so easy, as well as easy to come by. Suck it up and do something a tiny bit more useful. Why on earth would you want to limit yourself to being just one more dps? When was the last time dps mattered anyway?
Again, I shouldn't have to spend the time going around and getting multiple sets of gear for a character just to not be a "tard." I have an 80 Disco Priest, and he's my healer. When I feel like healing, or a raid needs that role filled, I bring in my priest. I don't need to respec -- so why should my chosen spec suffer?
To stress this point, what if I had a third 80 who was spec'd as a tank?
Yes, DPS is "easier" to an extent, and there are notoriously more DPS than tanks or healers. Maybe... and this is a longshot... but maybe that's because there are multiple "pure" DPS classes who can't tank or heal.
Post by
Squishalot
Yes, DPS is "easier" to an extent, and there are notoriously more DPS than tanks or healers. Maybe... and this is a longshot... but maybe that's because there are multiple "pure" DPS classes who can't tank or heal.
Or alternatively, it could just be because Blizzard designs fights/raids to require twice as many DPS as tanks/healers?
If the whole world were filled with Pallys and Druids, half of them would be Ret/Boomkin/Feral DPS, simply because fight mechanics demand it.
Then, there's the other point. DPS is generally considered to result in more fun in PvP. They've just never played a tank xD
Post by
Gribben
this is just stupid, so what the whiners here are saying is that ret pallys should not be able to output more dmg then a mage? consider this. a naxx 10 man geard rogue is out dps'd by a ulduar 25 man ret pally. is this wrong? is there somehow a flaw in blizzards game design by allowing such a thing? if this is youre attitude then dare i say.. u fail?
like wise. a poorly played rogue in ulduar 25 gear is out dps'd by a ret pally in ulduar 10 gear that actually knows how to play his class, is this also wrong?
from what i gather, this whining serves to do nothing but to prove that too many people needs to learn there class or perhaps get better gear,
Post by
Synectics
this is just stupid, so what the whiners here are saying is that ret pallys should not be able to output more dmg then a mage? consider this. a naxx 10 man geard rogue is out dps'd by a ulduar 25 man ret pally. is this wrong? is there somehow a flaw in blizzards game design by allowing such a thing? if this is youre attitude then dare i say.. u fail?
like wise. a poorly played rogue in ulduar 25 gear is out dps'd by a ret pally in ulduar 10 gear that actually knows how to play his class, is this also wrong?
from what i gather, this whining serves to do nothing but to prove that too many people needs to learn there class or perhaps get better gear,
The argument is that if you take a "pure" DPS class -- a Mage -- and put it in the same raid as a "hybrid" -- a Paladin -- and they are equally geared and equally skilled, that the Mage should be better, because the Paladin has the option to tank or heal.
Post by
321143
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Post by
Synectics
...
Great in all 3 areas. just not greatest in one where a small amount is made up in Utility.
Note, however, that I have stated REPEATEDLY that a Ret Paladin should not be at the top of the meters -- we bring a lot of utility, again, akin to a Shadow Priest, and on such basis, our DPS should be balanced to reflect what we bring to the raid as a whole. In "usefulness," we should match a pure DPS class.
I agree, and have said this far too many times. We shouldn't lead the meters, unless we're better geared or outplaying the other classes. The point remains that we shouldn't be "outdone" by classes who can't heal or tank. Their DPS will be inherently better, because they don't offer the sort of utility that a Paladin offers.
However, if we had no party bubble, no DI, no LoH, no blessings, no 3% extra crit, no JoL or JoW, and no Replenishment? I would say we should be doing just as much DPS as an equally skilled, equally geared Rogue -- our other two specs shouldn't factor into how well one spec performs.
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205531
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140590
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