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PTR
10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Protribution DPS
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Post by
Squishalot
Ok, here we go:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=1af2940b88bcaa3e08f8df73f2072ed6e04e75f6e8ebb871
The default setting in the sheet is currently a Protribution spec'd Pally in the 'Before', naked but for a Titansteel Bonecrusher and a Titansteel Shield Wall.
In the opposite corner, is a cookie cutter Retribution Pally, also naked but for a whopping huge Titansteel Destroyer.
The big change on the front sheet - Uptime. Protribution uptime is based on a 9-6 rotation to calculate the DPS. Retribution uptime is based on a guesstimate using FCFS with some guess at priority based on damage per attack.
For the record... this sort of assumes that there isn't another Ret pally in the raid to get Swift and Sanctified Retribution from... Make your own judgement call as to what would happen if Protribution had another Ret pally to back him up :)
Post by
svirve
Lol i like how you renamed it from "spread 1" to "Protribution_svirve_squishy" (love it how my name comes first ;P).
Will edit more for comments only just downloaded it ^^
Edit:
Awesome job on adding the talents :) Looks really great havn't had the time to check all the calculations for it and stuff but i'm working on it. Not that i think you've done something wrong but you found some things i've missed before so :)
Edit2:
Calculations
WPDMG formulae looks like this.
=(O20+((Q18/14)*O29))*(1+$'Talents Before'.N77)
As you can see by the tabs used it's in the After section but it uses the Before talents.
Also it directs to a tab that is empty in the talents before section.
Just realised you must've copied the formulae across the board thus the variables will be moved.
AVG Damage formulae looks like this.
=(((O35+P35)/2)*(1-(0,08-$Q$24)-(0,065-($Q$26*0,0025)))+(((O35+P35)/2)*$Q$22))
Just curious as to what the dollar signs do? Dont really see what function they could be filling. Or is it just some bug when transfering from excel to OOo?
For now i'm gonna take a short break need to fix things around the house.
Post by
Squishalot
Lol i like how you renamed it from "spread 1" to "Protribution_svirve_squishy" (love it how my name comes first ;P).
That would be because I saved it as 'Protribution_svirve' to start off with ^^ I can change it if you want - 'squishy' comes before 'svirve' alphabetically ;)
Edit:
Awesome job on adding the talents :) Looks really great havn't had the time to check all the calculations for it and stuff but i'm working on it. Not that i think you've done something wrong but you found some things i've missed before so :)
I would've been highly surprised if I'd covered all bases...
WPDMG formulae looks like this.
=(O20+((Q18/14)*O29))*(1+$'Talents Before'.N77)
As you can see by the tabs used it's in the After section but it uses the Before talents.
Also it directs to a tab that is empty in the talents before section.
Just realised you must've copied the formulae across the board thus the variables will be moved.
Yep, you've got it exactly right. That should probably read "(1+$'Talents After'.B77)" (or "(1+'Talents After'!B77)" in Excel).
AVG Damage formulae looks like this.
=(((O35+P35)/2)*(1-(0,08-$Q$24)-(0,065-($Q$26*0,0025)))+(((O35+P35)/2)*$Q$22))
Just curious as to what the dollar signs do? Dont really see what function they could be filling. Or is it just some bug when transfering from excel to OOo?
Not a bug, it's intentional. In Excel, the dollar signs create a cell-lock, as such. Normally, as you discovered to my dismay, when you copy a cell, the formulae update to the relative positions - cell C20 becomes cell O20, because relative to the cell you copied, it's in the same place.
The dollar signs lock it into the original cell. So $C$20 will stay as $C$20 when you copy it too.
The advantage of this is that you can write a formula at the top of AVG Damage, and then copy and paste it all the way down without having to rewrite the formulae and check what cell references broke. So if the formula references Crit % (Q22) and you copy and paste to the next cell down, the formula still references Q22, rather than Q23. Nifty, eh?
Post by
svirve
That would be because I saved it as 'Protribution_svirve' to start off with ^^ I can change it if you want - 'squishy' comes before 'svirve' alphabetically ;)
Just change it to svirve_wtfpwns if anything ;p
Not a bug, it's intentional. In Excel, the dollar signs create a cell-lock, as such. Normally, as you discovered to my dismay, when you copy a cell, the formulae update to the relative positions - cell C20 becomes cell O20, because relative to the cell you copied, it's in the same place.
The dollar signs lock it into the original cell. So $C$20 will stay as $C$20 when you copy it too.
The advantage of this is that you can write a formula at the top of AVG Damage, and then copy and paste it all the way down without having to rewrite the formulae and check what cell references broke. So if the formula references Crit % (Q22) and you copy and paste to the next cell down, the formula still references Q22, rather than Q23. Nifty, eh?
Aaah very nifty indeed! Though i have to ask. When you did this did you account for, spell hit on some spells and melee on others? Expertise, spell/melee crit, AP/SP or AP and SP.
Cant check atm but i will once i get a bit more time.
Post by
Squishalot
Aaah very nifty indeed! Though i have to ask. When you did this did you account for, spell hit on some spells and melee on others? Expertise, spell/melee crit, AP/SP or AP and SP.
Cant check atm but i will once i get a bit more time.
I copied and pasted for the select ones, not all of them. Distinguished between melee and spell, that should be the major differences. Melee includes melee hit, melee crit and expertise. Spell includes spell hit, I think it still references melee crit at the moment though.
AP/SP doesn't make a difference, because that's factored into the min/max damage.
Yes, spell doens't include spell crit, since I only added that today. That should apply to Exo, Hammer of Wrath, Consecrate... Judgement? The Judgement damage is neither hear nor there - should it be using spell hit and spell crit? How about Avenging Shield?
Post by
svirve
I copied and pasted for the select ones, not all of them. Distinguished between melee and spell, that should be the major differences. Melee includes melee hit, melee crit and expertise. Spell includes spell hit, I think it still references melee crit at the moment though.
Ah great!
AP/SP doesn't make a difference, because that's factored into the min/max damage.
Right you are!
Yes, spell doens't include spell crit, since I only added that today. That should apply to Exo, Hammer of Wrath, Consecrate... Judgement? The Judgement damage is neither hear nor there - should it be using spell hit and spell crit? How about Avenging Shield?
Judgement works of melee hit/crit. Not sure about AS though i would think that it uses melee hit and crit.
Are you sure about HoW? I thought it was using melee stats.
Post by
Squishalot
Can Judgement and Avenging Shield be dodged? I just worked off melee because that's what you put in.
HoW misses so often for me that I just assumed that it's spell hit. I'm not (wasn't) hit capped, so I'm not sure, it could've been melee, I suppose. We can use IF functions and a spell/melee flag somewhere for each ability to make it a general formula if necessary.
Anyway, I'm exhaused, so I'm actually going to be sleeping pre-midnight tonight. Have fun playing with it, let me know what else I've missed =)
Post by
259381
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Post by
358147
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Post by
svirve
Small and totally insignificant question~
I glanced at the spreadsheet and for the protribution spec it listed 2 out of 2 for Improved Judgements, wouldn't it only need 1/2 to fall into the 969696 rotation?
I know it's like "Why not? Where else would the point go?" But I'd probably go 3/5 Deflection and 3/5 Benediction, less on the mana cost reduction but a little nudge (parry) for pvpness.
Sorry, it just bothered me and I wanted to ask.
Right now we're just mostly worried about DPS mana has proved to not be an issue and well deflection is only useful if, as you said, you pvp.
Bigger and more significant question!~
What's the full spec/glyphs for the official protribution spec do you guys have in mind?
Or are we just going with
failblog
's spec?
*looking through 5 pages of replys to find it in my bookmarks*
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZE0zmrurGsIubdVf0x0f:aRL
That's the one we've been working around so far we're going to change it as soon as 3.2 hit (atleast move points into SotP *swears loudly*) but for now that's the one.
As far as spec itself goes I'd probably run with
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZAGzVruMhsIubdIs0x0f
May or may not swap...
Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for Imp RF
2/5 Conviction for 2/2 PoJ
...for PVP reasons
Your spec seems to be far more PvP oriented, while the one we've decided to use is specifically for PvE purposes.
And I was also thinking (Don't burn me too hard for this thought) of swapping the 3/5 Divinity and 2/2 Imp HoJ for 5/5 Reckoning. Yes, I know, Reckoning isn't all that amazing, but it's more DPS-oriented and Divinity is nifty for healers (but a DPS prot has a lot of health and isn't the target for aggro, and being so should give healers more ease than you'd (at least I'd) think) and Imp HoJ IMO isn't all that necessary for a raid environment.
Though, I could be wrong.
P.S. Yes I know Reckoning only matters if said person gets hit, but AOE does happen.
P.P.S. Sorry if all of the above was a waste of reading, I just had questions/thoughts and figured I'd ask/state them. This project is... god-like! and you two have put in a lot of work for it and I just wanted... you know... insight.
Thanks~
It's not a bad idea at all. If you PvP you're definately going to want reckoning and as you said AoE happens, ALOT.
Judgement can't be dodged or parried, neither can avenger's shield, only miss applies for both of them as far as I know (Judgement is a melee attack castable from 10 yds that can't be dodged or parried, go figure), but I'm not totally sure if avenger's shield uses melee or spell hit. I do know HoW works off melee +hit, in ret I don't have any trouble with it missing. The only thing using spell hit in our rotation is exorcism.
Yea expertise doesn't apply to judgements, AS and HoW. I'm gonna do some tests to see if AS works off of melee or spell hit.
Edit: A very brief test (30 or so AS's) show that it works off melee hit. Will do a more extensive test later on to see for sure but that's all i could gather the strength for now.
I've been following this thread for quite a while now, and I've tried protribution from time to time, and it's things like this that make me roll paladin =]
Good to hear! :)
Usually, the AoEs in a boss fight are going to kill you if you get hit (Aran anyone?) or seriously burden your healers, even then, I'm not sure it would be worth 5 points, seeing that a 20 sec hammer of justice could save a raid (Malacrass and KT come to mind) and you're getting an extra 3% healing, which means extra mana.
Of course, I could totally be wrong, so I say try it out if you have time, if it works, it works.
Yea you're mostly thinking of the bigger AoEs if we're gonna cover AoEs in general you'll see that there's lots of them. And being hit will most of the time not mean you're dead.
Picking up reckoning is not optimal since it relies on you being attacked so it's very unreliable so points are actually better spent elsewhere. In PvP though it's a whole other story
Post by
259381
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I glanced at the spreadsheet and for the protribution spec it listed 2 out of 2 for Improved Judgements, wouldn't it only need 1/2 to fall into the 969696 rotation?
It does smooth out the rotation a bit. Even as a pure prot pally, I still put 2/2 in Imp Judgements just to help compensate for the lag. I find it does help a little, though not much. At the very least, it'll work better for those fights that require a fair bit of moving around if you need to break and start-up your rotation again.
Question. After 3.2 will we be switching the Exorcism glyph out? As we don't get a nifty insta-cast Exorcism anymore (silly rets get all the spiffy talents)
Possibly Judgement or Vengeance?
Which brings me to another question. I read somewhere that people were considering (for PvE) SoCommand for short-term fights/trash fights and using SoV solely for boss fights because of the time to stack. Would it be wise to throw a point into SoCommand or would you, personally, not recommend it?
After 3.2, the Vengeance glyph would probably yield a higher increase in damage than Judgement, but the spreadsheet could probably tell us that if necessary.
SoC vs SoV will be a question that we'll need to plug into the sheet. At the moment, we're assuming SoB, which correlates nicely into SoC. Any modelling we do with SoV will assume a long-term 5-stack state, I assume, but we can probably factor in a '10 second', '20 second', '30 second' sort of analysis to ask 'which is better at what point in time'.
Judgement can't be dodged or parried, neither can avenger's shield, only miss applies for both of them as far as I know (Judgement is a melee attack castable from 10 yds that can't be dodged or parried, go figure), but I'm not totally sure if avenger's shield uses melee or spell hit. I do know HoW works off melee +hit, in ret I don't have any trouble with it missing. The only thing using spell hit in our rotation is exorcism.
Yea expertise doesn't apply to judgements, AS and HoW. I'm gonna do some tests to see if AS works off of melee or spell hit.
Edit: A very brief test (30 or so AS's) show that it works off melee hit. Will do a more extensive test later on to see for sure but that's all i could gather the strength for now.
Awesome, that's all I needed to know. Ranged melee attacks with no dodge/parry, awesome. I'll make the changes on my sheet now.
*looking through 5 pages of replys to find it in my bookmarks*
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZE0zmrurGsIubdVf0x0f:aRL
That's the one we've been working around so far we're going to change it as soon as 3.2 hit (atleast move points into SotP *swears loudly*) but for now that's the one.
svirve, I did a rough analysis in the Protribution V3.2 (i.e. really Protadin v3.2) thread. It seems to me that the extra damage on SoV you get from Seals of the Pure aren't as valuable as the extra damage you get from Conviction and Crusade, and that prot specs aren't going to change significantly. So protribution specs may not change much either.
Blizzard may start rebalancing things as a result though.... ;p
Post by
svirve
svirve, I did a rough analysis in the Protribution V3.2 (i.e. really Protadin v3.2) thread. It seems to me that the extra damage on SoV you get from Seals of the Pure aren't as valuable as the extra damage you get from Conviction and Crusade, and that prot specs aren't going to change significantly. So protribution specs may not change much either.
Blizzard may start rebalancing things as a result though.... ;p
Yea i noticed that, I just forgot about it =)
Awesome, that's all I needed to know. Ranged melee attacks with no dodge/parry, awesome. I'll make the changes on my sheet now.
Yea the weather is killing me atm taking all my strength so i'm going to be so rude as to just sit back and wait for you to upload another spreadsheet >.< Not expecting one right away ofcourse but after we've done some changes and tweaking to it.
Right now i'm gonna go to bed and hopefully be a bit less tired tomorrow.
Post by
Squishalot
svirve - no worries. Once we're happy with the changes, and moreorless satisfied that it's all working well, I'll re-upload it, and then we can start working on stat weightings.
To everyone - can people use the Wowhead profiler to create what they would consider to be appropriate gear for the Protribution spec, to give us a starting point to test?
Or alternatively, just post a list here with the stats.
Statistics...
From naked to n3kk1d - as promised, I did a Str vs Crit chart to see which would yield more benefit.
Using our naked Protribution pally with only his mace and his Shield Wall to protect him from the elements, I ran a series of tests to compare Strength and Crit, and the impacts on DPS as a result.
Crit
Str 0 100 200 300 400 500 600
0: 1115 1135 1154 1173 1192 1211 1231
100: 1201 1222 1243 1263 1284 1305 1326
200: 1288 1310 1332 1354 1376 1399 1421
300: 1374 1398 1421 1445 1469 1492 1516
400: 1460 1485 1511 1536 1561 1586 1612
500: 1546 1573 1599 1626 1653 1680 1707
900: 1891 1923 1956 1989 2022 2055 2088
1000: 1977 2011 2045 2080 2114 2148 2183
1400: 2321 2362 2402 2443 2483 2523 2564
1500: 2408 2449 2491 2533 2575 2617 2659
In other words, Strength is overwhelmingly more useful than Crit, by a ratio of about 4.5:1, at extremely low stat levels. At higher stat levels, it goes to about 2:1. So the extra 100 Strength that takes you from 1400 to 1500, could alternatively be spent taking you from 0 to 200 crit rating, for similar effect. But going from 0 to 100 (on armour including mace/shield, not on base) Strength, you'd need about 450 crit rating. This makes sense - the increased value from Crit is over your total DPS. The increased value from Strength is moreorless linear.
Hit
Str 0 60 120 180 240 282 300
0: 1115 1136 1156 1177 1197 1206 1207
100: 1201 1223 1245 1267 1290 1299 1300
200: 1288 1311 1335 1359 1382 1392 1393
300: 1374 1399 1424 1450 1475 1486 1486
400: 1460 1487 1514 1541 1568 1579 1580
500: 1546 1574 1603 1631 1660 1672 1673
900: 1891 1925 1960 1996 2031 2045 2046
1000: 1977 2013 2050 2087 2124 2138 2139
1400: 2321 2364 2407 2451 2494 2512 2513
1500: 2408 2452 2497 2542 2587 2605 2606
Again, there's a huge difference between the weightings from 0 to 1500. At the bottom end, the difference between 0 and 100 bonus Strength is the equivalent of around 260 Hit Rating, about 2.6:1. At the top end, the difference between 1400-1500 Strength is only 120 Hit Rating.
Moral of the story - a lot of weightings rely heavily on the gear level. If you've got 400 Strength, there's no point trying to be hit capped, you might as well pick up about 60 Hit Rating and an extra 100 Strength and have the same effect.
Post by
306572
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Post by
306572
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Post by
Squishalot
I think you can save a profile to your account, then link that saved profile. I haven't tried to set it up yet though. Maybe over the weekend, I'll give it a go.
Post by
124740
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Post by
Squishalot
Oh come on, you've come all the way to this thread, you've read what a protribution paladin is about, and you didn't read all the posts about what gear to use?
Ret gear, DPS sword and shield, strength.
Post by
106607
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