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10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
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Protribution DPS
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Post by
Squishalot
svirve - your formula looks fine =)
Is the base dps linked to the base strength and associated AP, and unarmed skill, perhaps? If you have 400 unarmed skill, that would give you a fairly hefty dps, right?
Magnerz - if you spec further into Ret, you won't have enough points for HotR..
Slow weapons are still priority, as with Ret. HotR is based on weapon dps, not actual damage, so the dps in total will remain the same. SoB procs will scale on weapon damage, so as speed increases, your SoB dps on melee remains the same. However, your SoB procs on all will increase, since they'll continue to proc on HotR. You won't get the same increase in scaling that you will (since Ret dps is based on weapon damage mostly - CS and DS), but you'll still see some benefit from a slower weapon. Only problem may be usefulness of Reckoning, but I don't know that it procs that often to be worthwhile considering.
Post by
Nazeka
1.5-1.6, or 2.5-.2.7... which is the better option? fast for SoB proc's, or Slow for HotR hits?
I would assume that slower is better, since Seal of bloot/martyr isn't normalized by weapon speed.
assuming that with a 1.5 speed we'll do 100 damage, we'll get 500 SoB damage in 6 seconds with hammer
assuming that the 3.0 speed (doesn't exist but makes math nicer) does 200 points per hit, SoB would do 600 damage in 6 seconds with hammer.
a 20% increase from the seal's damage
Post by
Magnerz
bah, wrote retribution instead of reckoning "facepalm"... swap out 3/3 in argent defender for maxxing out reckoning... just makes more sense imo as a dpser... and ty for the wep speed conformation :)
Post by
Squishalot
Yeah, I'm uncertain about Reckoning, to be honest.
Reckoning has a chance of proc'ing on non-avoided attacks. But the question is begging to be asked - how many attacks will a dps'er actually take over the course of combat? Even if they take 10 hits, 5/5 Reckoning will only proc once on average, doubling melee weapon dps and associated SoB damage for 8 seconds.
On the face of it, melee plus SoB dps is approximately 1200dps using failblog's % numbers. Reckoning will double that to 2400dps for 8 seconds (assuming you get full uptime, or 4 hits on a 2 sec weapon). So the benefit you get from Reckoning is 1200 dps * 8 seconds = 9600 damage. Average that out over the 2 minute fight and you get an increase of 80 dps.
So each point in Reckoning is worth 16 dps. Personally, if I'm getting hit 10 times, or once every 10 seconds, I'm thinking that I'm doing something wrong (taking aggro too often, in which case dps isn't an issue), or that either way, I'd rather the mitigation to give the healers that much more space with which to heal me. I actually question the use of Reckoning at all in the spec, because of the fact that you're not supposed to be taking hits, but there isn't any other reasonable place to put the lower level points.
Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
89501
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
PEOPLE DIDNT SHOW UP SO I HAD TO HEAL 10 man uld. i have logged out in my "protribution gear" so you guys can see my armory in that gear and spec.
Armory hasn't updated since 12/6 :( But gear atm isn't as important. I'll just put in some average stats and see what it comes out to.
Is the base dps linked to the base strength and associated AP, and unarmed skill, perhaps? If you have 400 unarmed skill, that would give you a fairly hefty dps, right?
The numbers i'm seeing now is:
Stat Base Value Total
STR 170 934 1104
STA 218 2296 2514
SPI 104 0 104
AGI 92 22 114
INT 102 0 102
SP 0 0 754,2
AP 0 0 2208
Base is the base stat, value is what is added from gear.
And total includes talents.
I have copied the numbers straight off failblogs armory profile.
Which shows:
AP 2428
Otherwise everything is correct (since i copied it duh)
Which would suggest a base AP of 220 (cause adding 15% from divine str would make it about 2540 AP).
I'm fine with that but this still only gives me the following numbers using his last laugh as a weapon:
WPBasemin 192
WPBasemax 357
WPSPD 1,6
WPminDMG WPBasemin+((AP/14)*WPSPD) = 469,49
WPmaxDMG WPBasemax+((AP/14)*WPSPD) = 634,49
WPavgDMG (469,49+634,49)/2 = 551,99
WPDPS WPavgDMG/WPSPD = 344,99
While his armory profile shows these numbers:
WPminDMG 531
WPmaxDMG 719
WPDPS 390,9
Which means i've missed 45,91 DPS.
Since this is just very odd i'm starting to come to the conclusion that adding paper doll stats is the easiest way instead of adding weapon damage and using current AP to get the assumed DPS. Which is wrong atm anyways.
And since blizzard doesnt use AVG dmg from the weapon even adding paper doll stats will make us miss 0.3 DPS.... that's negligable though but annoying.
Post by
svirve
Proof check if anyone is awake.
Adding crit (for now and hit in a min).
Thing is i had the formula in my head last night when i went to bed but now i'm trying to figure out what it was >.<
I'll use AS as an example
Min Max Avg DPS
2645,48 3133,48 2889,48 96,32
So basically i want to add the effect of crit to this.
Easiest way would be to integrate in the avg hit since min and max doesnt change.
What i'm thinking atm is:
=(AVG*2)*crit%
forgot to mention i'm using 18,46% as the crit chance.
This gives me 1066,8 which would be the added effect of the crit.
Basically making the average AS hit for 3956,28.
Please stop me if i'm wrong.
Edit: double posting is bad i know but nobody will notice an edit if they've already checked my previous reply.
Post by
Squishalot
Quick q - how can it be 'Total' including talents, when you got it off Armory? Armory doesn't include talents?
Edit: So it does! But it appears to be only interacting with the items - 15% * 813 strength from the items, rather than (170 + 813) * 0.15.
And to confirm what you're doing with the crit:
(A) = Average AS damage
(B) = Average Crit bonus (being crit damage * chance of crit)
(A) + (B) = Total AS Average Damage
Looks good to me =) I'm cooking dinner now, but I'll come back and check out the rest once I'm done.
Edit: Just for the record, I think we're better off going from a clean slate, and working on all the calcs from a naked character, rather than trying to work from the basis of a geared up character. It'll make all the scaling calculations much easier, at least, since they'll be starting from a 'no gear' point in time.
Edit 2: I've done the same thing with my details, and have found a discrepancy with Armory. Crusade adds an additional 3% damage that is being factored into the final number displayed in Armory.
For me:
AP: 2998
BaseMin: 447
BaseMax: 672
Weapon Speed: 3.0sec
WPMinDMG: 939.4286 (by your formula, which is 100% accurate)
WPMaxDMG: 1164.429
WPDPS: 350.64
Displayed: 967-1200, 355.2dps
Explained by 3% for Crusade. I'm using a Fishing Rod at the moment, so I don't get two handed weapon spec.
Now, in failblog's case, he has 10% from One-Handed Weapon Spec.
WPMinDMG: 469.49 * (1 + 10% + 3%) = 530.5237.
Voila - missing dps found =)
Edit 3: Just to make it clear - there's no reasonable way that you could have identified this by working on failblog's numbers. The only reason I noted it is because I've got my character screen on one computer and Armory open on another, and looking at them side by side. If you mouse 'Damage' on your character screen, you'll see the damage done with a 'x103%' next to it - that's Crusade, and that's what tipped me off.
Post by
svirve
Quick q - how can it be 'Total' including talents, when you got it off Armory? Armory doesn't include talents?
Edit: So it does! But it appears to be only interacting with the items - 15% * 813 strength from the items, rather than (170 + 813) * 0.15.
And to confirm what you're doing with the crit:
(A) = Average AS damage
(B) = Average Crit bonus (being crit damage * chance of crit)
(A) + (B) = Total AS Average Damage
Looks good to me =) I'm cooking dinner now, but I'll come back and check out the rest once I'm done.
Great i've added hit as well now which was alot easier.
Edit: Just for the record, I think we're better off going from a clean slate, and working on all the calcs from a naked character, rather than trying to work from the basis of a geared up character. It'll make all the scaling calculations much easier, at least, since they'll be starting from a 'no gear' point in time.
Right now im just using some numbers to see that everything is working properly. But it's going to be a clean setup once im finished or atleast clean enough so it's just to erase the bonuses i've added.
Edit 2: I've done the same thing with my details, and have found a discrepancy with Armory. Crusade adds an additional 3% damage that is being factored into the final number displayed in Armory.
For me:
AP: 2998
BaseMin: 447
BaseMax: 672
Weapon Speed: 3.0sec
WPMinDMG: 939.4286 (by your formula, which is 100% accurate)
WPMaxDMG: 1164.429
WPDPS: 350.64
Displayed: 967-1200, 355.2dps
Explained by 3% for Crusade. I'm using a Fishing Rod at the moment, so I don't get two handed weapon spec.
Now, in failblog's case, he has 10% from One-Handed Weapon Spec.
WPMinDMG: 469.49 * (1 + 10% + 3%) = 530.5237.
Voila - missing dps found =)
Edit 3: Just to make it clear - there's no reasonable way that you could have identified this by working on failblog's numbers. The only reason I noted it is because I've got my character screen on one computer and Armory open on another, and looking at them side by side. If you mouse 'Damage' on your character screen, you'll see the damage done with a 'x103%' next to it - that's Crusade, and that's what tipped me off.
Aaaaah i was looking at his damage and searching for the *XXX% but since it wasnt there i didn't think it was accounted for.
Then i'll bring it back to the previous way i had it. That way it's easier to see how weapon speed and min/max damage affects your total damage.
Rather than having to equip a weapon before you know it's better.
Edit:
A thought that struck me is that HotR double dips the bonuses from crusade and 1h wep spec.
Since the DPS is increased from the talents and the damage on HotR is then increased again.
Edit2:
When adding hit and crit which should come first? Or does it even matter? This got me scratching my head.
Since a 2% hit chance would reduce the DPS of the skill by 6% it would be:
(skill*bla*bla)*(0,92+hit)
Thus skill would be doing 6% less (in this case) DPS on paper which would be realistic. Am i right?
But then to my original question do i add the crit first or after? Say..
(((skill*bla*bla)*2)*critchance%)*(0,92+hit)
OR
(((skill*bla*bla)*(0,92+hit))*2)*critchance%
Just like that i would say the first one cause the crit is actually there to determine avg DPS and if it doesnt hit it doesnt crit.
Post by
Squishalot
Edit:
A thought that struck me is that HotR double dips the bonuses from crusade and 1h wep spec.
Since the DPS is increased from the talents and the damage on HotR is then increased again.
Why is it double counting? I'd be of the impression that once it increases the weapon damage (and therefore DPS), it's doesn't apply anywhere else. So from a game mechanics perspective, the weapon/ability damage range is calculated, then hit is calculated, then damage is calculated. Crusade and 1 handed weapon spec get applied at the first section, so they don't get applied at the end? Otherwise all attacks would double dip.
Edit2:
When adding hit and crit which should come first? Or does it even matter? This got me scratching my head.
Since a 2% hit chance would reduce the DPS of the skill by 6% it would be:
(skill*bla*bla)*(0,92+hit)
Thus skill would be doing 6% less (in this case) DPS on paper which would be realistic. Am i right?
But then to my original question do i add the crit first or after? Say..
(((skill*bla*bla)*2)*critchance%)*(0,92+hit)
OR
(((skill*bla*bla)*(0,92+hit))*2)*critchance%
Just like that i would say the first one cause the crit is actually there to determine avg DPS and if it doesnt hit it doesnt crit.
To answer this, we should go back to the hit table. Irrespective of whether you're hitcapped or not, crit damage is a straight ((skill*bla*bla)*2)*critchance%, since if you do hit, you've got a higher than critchance% of actually critting.
For example, imagine that you've got a 5% chance of missing and a 30% crit rate (and assume for now that you're expertise capped). So the hit table is:
1-5: Miss
6-35: Crit
36-100: Hit normal
Normal damage will be (skill) * 0.95.
Crit damage will be (skill * 2) * crit%. This comes irrespective of the hit rate, unless your crit is being pushed off the hit table.
... and it just strikes me, our earlier formula for crit is wrong. You can't add (A) and (B) together, because (B) assumes that if you crit, you have to subtract the 'normal' damage that would have been done if you hadn't crit. So what it should be is:
(A) = (skill * bla * bla) * (0.92 + hit%)
(B) = (skill * bla * bla) * crit%
(A) + (B) = Total damage from ability
Reasoning: (B) represents only the crit
bonus
, not the actual damage done.
Edit: Just to clarify why it wouldn't be (0.92 + hit%) * crit%...
You'll still get crit% of attacks as crits, as opposed to crit% of hits. Hence, any critical hit damage formula should be multiplying crit% by attacks (i.e. 1), rather than hits.
Post by
svirve
Edit:
A thought that struck me is that HotR double dips the bonuses from crusade and 1h wep spec.
Since the DPS is increased from the talents and the damage on HotR is then increased again.
Why is it double counting? I'd be of the impression that once it increases the weapon damage (and therefore DPS), it's doesn't apply anywhere else. So from a game mechanics perspective, the weapon/ability damage range is calculated, then hit is calculated, then damage is calculated. Crusade and 1 handed weapon spec get applied at the first section, so they don't get applied at the end? Otherwise all attacks would double dip.
ShoR wouldn't double dip, Exo, cons, AS.
Only judge, sob and HotR will.
Or maybe it's added at the end of the line so it doesn't double dip. Doesnt make sense though when it's listed on your paper doll on the damage.
Edit2:
When adding hit and crit which should come first? Or does it even matter? This got me scratching my head.
Since a 2% hit chance would reduce the DPS of the skill by 6% it would be:
(skill*bla*bla)*(0,92+hit)
Thus skill would be doing 6% less (in this case) DPS on paper which would be realistic. Am i right?
But then to my original question do i add the crit first or after? Say..
(((skill*bla*bla)*2)*critchance%)*(0,92+hit)
OR
(((skill*bla*bla)*(0,92+hit))*2)*critchance%
Just like that i would say the first one cause the crit is actually there to determine avg DPS and if it doesnt hit it doesnt crit.
To answer this, we should go back to the hit table. Irrespective of whether you're hitcapped or not, crit damage is a straight ((skill*bla*bla)*2)*critchance%, since if you do hit, you've got a higher than critchance% of actually critting.
For example, imagine that you've got a 5% chance of missing and a 30% crit rate (and assume for now that you're expertise capped). So the hit table is:
1-5: Miss
6-35: Crit
36-100: Hit normal
Normal damage will be (skill) * 0.95.
Crit damage will be (skill * 2) * crit%. This comes irrespective of the hit rate, unless your crit is being pushed off the hit table.
... and it just strikes me, our earlier formula for crit is wrong. You can't add (A) and (B) together, because (B) assumes that if you crit, you have to subtract the 'normal' damage that would have been done if you hadn't crit. So what it should be is:
(A) = (skill * bla * bla) * (0.92 + hit%)
(B) = (skill * bla * bla) * crit%
(A) + (B) = Total damage from ability
Reasoning: (B) represents only the crit
bonus
, not the actual damage done.
Edit: Just to clarify why it wouldn't be (0.92 + hit%) * crit%...
You'll still get crit% of attacks as crits, as opposed to crit% of hits. Hence, any critical hit damage formula should be multiplying crit% by attacks (i.e. 1), rather than hits.
Ah right you are mister! Makes complete sense now.
I'll be pausing for the moment and will change the crit and hit details once i've taken a nap (been helping my friends parents move for 9 hours)
Anyhow i thought i'd give you a quick sneak peak of how far i've come.
http://s600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/svirve/?action=view¤t=sneakpeak.jpg
That's how it looks like atm. You cant see any formulas or anything but atleast you know i'm doing something =).
Post by
Squishalot
Looks great so far! =)
Never doubted that you were doing something - just getting itchy fingers of my own! Can't wait to get at it! Let me know if there's anything else I can help work on - 2am here, so it'll be tomorrow, but if you get somewhere reasonable by the time you head off tonight, then I can take it over in my gaps at work tomorrow.
Post by
svirve
Thanks =)
Hehe you never know though ;p I'll try to do as much as possible by (your) tomorrow and if i get stuck on something i'll just write it in a post and keep on going with what i can do for the moment.
I wont be doing anything for a little while though but later on i'll continue with it.
Just to explain all the yellow fields in the sneak peak, those are just so i know which tabs that have calculations in them so i dont try to manually change something and screw stuff up =)
Post by
195690
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
If you wanted to show the formulae on excel(assuming yo uare in fact using excel) Svirve you can press Ctrl+`(that button next to 1 :P). Just trying to make myself useful as what you're discussing on a technical level is quite beyond what I want to spend the time looking in to at the moment.
Using OpenOfficeorg so doesnt work but thanks alot for the tip =)
Pretty sure it's possible to make it work in OOo as well but mostly wanted to show how far i've come since i've documented pretty much all i've done in the replies here =)
And the math really isn't that hard =) It's more a matter of logically determing what gets multiplied with what.
The hardest part is figuring out why blizzard hides 50% of the information on armory >.<
Edit:
What would be the best way to integrate SoB. I have already added it and i believe it to be right but would be nice with a second oppinion (not going to post how i did it in case that would influence anyones oppinion).
I've integrated hit and crit now. Going to work on expertise tomorrow.
Added a 2nd field identical to the first one and made it Before and After for easy comparison.
Also added a Difference field in between the 2 so one can see the increase in value/DPS for skills/stats and also how much it is increased in percentages.
Another sneak peak.
http://s600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/svirve/?action=view¤t=sneakpeak2.jpg
Looks very different from before but there's really only been minor work.
Post by
fantom106
My main question is what type of gear one should use with the Protribution spec. Obviously you should have a slow one-hander and shield, but should you wear full ret gear or full prot gear, or a mix of both? (I don't have any good prot gear atm ><)
I think this spec is really interesting and I really want to take it for a spin. I never did like conventional methods of dps ^^. (originality ftw!)
Post by
svirve
From the assumptions we've made so far you're basically going to want ret gear with a slow 1h and a shield with as much block as possible.
Though as soon as the spreadsheet i'm working on gets closer to finished we'll be able to set up stat weights.
Post by
Squishalot
Before and after is for gear comparison purposes?
One thing for the 'final' version would be to include a 'relevant talent' calculator, so we can see how much value the extra point in Reckoning is worth, how much value 1% Crusade is worth, etc.
Also for the final version - the ability to compare this back to a conventional Ret spec, so we need to build in Divine Storm and Crusader Strike abilities too, as well as the Ret talents.
Still looks awesome.
My main question is what type of gear one should use with the Protribution spec. Obviously you should have a slow one-hander and shield, but should you wear full ret gear or full prot gear, or a mix of both? (I don't have any good prot gear atm ><)
It's likely that you need fairly geared Ret equipment too, not just any old Ret gear. Naxx25 or Ulduar gear with no reliance on Valorous/Conqueror's equipment, since that wastes item value on skill enhancements that you won't be using.
My theory is that if it was that easy to design this spec pre raiding, then people would've flocked to it already. What's more likely is that people ended up set in their Ret ways at the Heroic level because it was better, and that the Protribution spec simply scales better with stats, making it more useful (relatively) at the top end of the gear spectrum.
Post by
svirve
Before and after is for gear comparison purposes?
Indeed it's what controls the differences section in the middle.
I found this to be the easiest way to compare 1 piece of gear versus the other (for future reference).
And this way it's easy to see how much 32 str would increase DPS compared to 1% hit.
One thing for the 'final' version would be to include a 'relevant talent' calculator, so we can see how much value the extra point in Reckoning is worth, how much value 1% Crusade is worth, etc.
I might add this on a later time. Right now what felt relevant was crusade and 1h wep spec which is there.
Though reckoning wont be there. It's way too unpredictable when you dont have aggro. In order to calculate it there would need to be a different calculation for each and every encounter and too much guessing to be worthwile.
Also for the final version - the ability to compare this back to a conventional Ret spec, so we need to build in Divine Storm and Crusader Strike abilities too, as well as the Ret talents.
Still looks awesome.
The easiest way to solve this would be to just get a ret spreadsheet and use the same stats.
Spending a good 4-5 hours on this spreadsheet so far and atleast two times that ahead of me before i dare call this close to done integrating a ret spreadsheet is way out on the horizon atm atleast =)
Right now i've called it a day since i'm generally tired and dont want to screw up anything.
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